What is the main psychological difference

JCD · 07-05-2013, 10:24 PM

between a Celestial and a Mortal?

I think this is the hardest thing to pull off in the game and in the story.

I'd like to hear some of your opinions. I know how I've done it, but I'd like a bit more insight.

Azel · 07-06-2013, 06:25 AM

In a word, fixation.

The level of devotion to a fixation is beyond human. They resonate to their served words, and manner with which they serve. To do otherwise actually hurts them, tears at their being, i.e. dissonance.

For a human to be fickle, it's a breezy changing of one's mind, letting one thing go and picking up another. For a celestial to be fickle, it's like a conscious breezy changing of one's mind, to deliberately let one thing go and pick up another. Humans have a flexibility to run on autopilot and vacillate between selflessness and selfishness with ease. It doesn't gnaw on the core of their very being.

Such fixation of thought and action is just exhausting to a human; it's not an automatic process for us to live and breathe ideas to that level. To celestials its a nigh autonomic process, like breathing or digestion; to do otherwise would hurt. As it would hurt our very being to eat a carrot by ramming it through our nose and into our stomach, or hold our breath until we faint because its Tuesday, it would be as to celestials to fight against the ideas that sustain their very existence.

JCD · 07-06-2013, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azel

In a word, fixation.

The level of devotion to a fixation is beyond human. They resonate to their served words, and manner with which they serve. To do otherwise actually hurts them, tears at their being, i.e. dissonance.

For a human to be fickle, it's a breezy changing of one's mind, letting one thing go and picking up another. For a celestial to be fickle, it's like a conscious breezy changing of one's mind, to deliberately let one thing go and pick up another. Humans have a flexibility to run on autopilot and vacillate between selflessness and selfishness with ease. It doesn't gnaw on the core of their very being.

Such fixation of thought and action is just exhausting to a human; it's not an automatic process for us to live and breathe ideas to that level. To celestials its a nigh autonomic process, like breathing or digestion; to do otherwise would hurt. As it would hurt our very being to eat a carrot by ramming it through our nose and into our stomach, or hold our breath until we faint because its Tuesday, it would be as to celestials to fight against the ideas that sustain their very existence.

Interesting. Then what differentiates the average Celestial from a Cherub/Djinn, who both embrace 'fixation' in different ways?

And how does that relate to Kyriotates, who are extraordinarily flexible?

How does this work in practical terms?

I am not disagreeing with you. I am just curious how you view it and how to 'play' it?

sir_pudding · 07-06-2013, 10:33 AM

"I think it has something to do with free will." -The Supreme Being, Time Bandits

JCD · 07-06-2013, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

"I think it has something to do with free will." -The Supreme Being, Time Bandits

But it's a part of the Core that angels and demons HAVE Freeish Will...which I guess is part of the difference.

If they didn't have Free Will, how did Lucifer fall?

sir_pudding · 07-06-2013, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCD

But it's a part of the Core that angels and demons HAVE Freeish Will...which I guess is part of the difference.

Even less of an illusion of Free Will than mortals, though, eh? At any rate I see it as more of a gradient than a binary, higher choirs (and lower bands) are supposed be successively less human and more divine (or infernal) right? So Mercurians/Impudites are the most human-like and Seraphs/Balseraphs the most bound to the nature of Heaven/Hell.

Quote:

If they didn't have Free Will, how did Lucifer fall?

Well that's a CDaU sort of question isn't it? Did he fall or was he pushed? Or did he spring into being already fallen, with his rebellion part of the Reality Quake, when Yahweh the Ethereal ascended?

JCD · 07-06-2013, 10:59 AM

"For a baker, the answer is always bread."

So...for a Fire Demon, is the answer always more C-4?

Shiftkitty · 07-06-2013, 11:30 AM

What about the concept of time? When you're immortal, wouldn't waiting a few hundred years for someone to get back to you seem normal, versus humans who expect responses within a day or so at the most? (We do that in D&D a lot when dealing with elves. "Let me get back to you," from an elf when you're a 19 year old human might see you get a response when you're on your deathbed.)

JCD · 07-06-2013, 12:32 PM

Hmm, Shiftkitty. You remind me of something I read in Castle Falkenstein, where it talked about the differences between the Fay Folk and Humans.

The Fay, in Falkenstein, CHOOSE exactly who and what they became in the real world (sort of like RPG players). They chose what they would be. They picked their character so they don't have a gripe about what it is.

So that celestial in a 5'2, 300 pound form CHOSE to look like that for whatever perverse reasons. A human who is also born in that shape and is dissatisfied with his lot in life doesn't find a lot of sympathy from demons because...well...they can't relate (not totally understanding genetics) and angels just look at the soul anyway so exterior aesthetics don't matter, right? Why are you complaining about something so ephemeral?

Another thing which they can't understand is the 'wolf in the door' drive that people have to have to provide the basics of life. When even a fire demon can stand in knee deep snow comfortably, and has never eaten, the drive that makes people fight and make (in angelic eyes) poor moral choices ('she's doing WHAT for food?') might be understood in a technical sense but without the keen understanding that a fellow human whose been hungry can.

I am not discounting the time thing, but it's sort of like the Endless of Neil Gaiman: yeah, they got forever so they aren't afraid of long term plans, but they still live every day 24/7 like the rest of us. Every day brings it's own surprises, emergencies and necessities to keep one engaged in the here and now....mostly. Probably less in Hell, but more on Earth.

But I can see the 'I'll get an answer to you' taking a lot more time than one expects barring emergencies.

Jason · 07-06-2013, 12:39 PM

One of the cool things about In Nomine as a setting, I think, is that it gives tools and suggestions to let you answer this thread's question more than one way, depending on what you want to focus on.

Personally, in my campaign, the answer is "not much at all, really." Psychologically, the celestials are generally pretty much like mortals until they start racking up dissonance or discord, at which point their celestial-ness really starts to seep through: overzealousness, feeling temporarily blinded or deaf when they can't use their resonance as effectively, claustrophobic terror at being bound into their vessel, and so on. Most of the time, though, we play them like people caught up in an absurd bureaucratic hierarchy, constantly trying to poach talent from the rival organization ... just on a more fantastical scale.

I've made characters and stories that explore this other ways, though, and consider celestials as more alien. When I do that, I'd say the distinguishing psychological feature of celestials is certainty. Angels know they're right about the meaning of life, and they know they can trust their senses in at least one facet of social interaction (through their resonance). Demons know they have the power to define their own "meaning of life," and they can trust in their own ability to impose that on the outside world. Celestials don't have as much uncertainty as mortals about their place in the world, and that certainty (especially if played with disregard for mortal opinions' of them) makes them seem very alien.

07-05-2013, 10:24 PM	#1
JCD Join Date: May 2008 Location: Birthplace of the Worst Pizza on the Planet	What is the main psychological difference between a Celestial and a Mortal? I think this is the hardest thing to pull off in the game and in the story. I'd like to hear some of your opinions. I know how I've done it, but I'd like a bit more insight. __________________ Curtis Says: Remember to take your Shots. And use a tight grouping.

07-06-2013, 06:25 AM	#2
Azel Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: South of the Town across from the City by the Bay	Re: What is the main psychological difference In a word, fixation. The level of devotion to a fixation is beyond human. They resonate to their served words, and manner with which they serve. To do otherwise actually hurts them, tears at their being, i.e. dissonance. For a human to be fickle, it's a breezy changing of one's mind, letting one thing go and picking up another. For a celestial to be fickle, it's like a conscious breezy changing of one's mind, to deliberately let one thing go and pick up another. Humans have a flexibility to run on autopilot and vacillate between selflessness and selfishness with ease. It doesn't gnaw on the core of their very being. Such fixation of thought and action is just exhausting to a human; it's not an automatic process for us to live and breathe ideas to that level. To celestials its a nigh autonomic process, like breathing or digestion; to do otherwise would hurt. As it would hurt our very being to eat a carrot by ramming it through our nose and into our stomach, or hold our breath until we faint because its Tuesday, it would be as to celestials to fight against the ideas that sustain their very existence.

07-06-2013, 10:33 AM	#4
sir_pudding Wielder of Smart Pants Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Ventura CA	Re: What is the main psychological difference "I think it has something to do with free will." -The Supreme Being, Time Bandits

07-06-2013, 10:59 AM	#7
JCD Join Date: May 2008 Location: Birthplace of the Worst Pizza on the Planet	Re: What is the main psychological difference "For a baker, the answer is always bread." So...for a Fire Demon, is the answer always more C-4? __________________ Curtis Says: Remember to take your Shots. And use a tight grouping.

07-06-2013, 11:30 AM	#8
Shiftkitty Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: A little south of Heaven and a little north of Hell.	Re: What is the main psychological difference What about the concept of time? When you're immortal, wouldn't waiting a few hundred years for someone to get back to you seem normal, versus humans who expect responses within a day or so at the most? (We do that in D&D a lot when dealing with elves. "Let me get back to you," from an elf when you're a 19 year old human might see you get a response when you're on your deathbed.) __________________ "Your problem is you play too many role-playing games." ~My brother's complaint when I wouldn't help him commit a felony. I wound up turning him in. Maybe he should have played more.

07-06-2013, 12:32 PM	#9
JCD Join Date: May 2008 Location: Birthplace of the Worst Pizza on the Planet	Re: What is the main psychological difference Hmm, Shiftkitty. You remind me of something I read in Castle Falkenstein, where it talked about the differences between the Fay Folk and Humans. The Fay, in Falkenstein, CHOOSE exactly who and what they became in the real world (sort of like RPG players). They chose what they would be. They picked their character so they don't have a gripe about what it is. So that celestial in a 5'2, 300 pound form CHOSE to look like that for whatever perverse reasons. A human who is also born in that shape and is dissatisfied with his lot in life doesn't find a lot of sympathy from demons because...well...they can't relate (not totally understanding genetics) and angels just look at the soul anyway so exterior aesthetics don't matter, right? Why are you complaining about something so ephemeral? Another thing which they can't understand is the 'wolf in the door' drive that people have to have to provide the basics of life. When even a fire demon can stand in knee deep snow comfortably, and has never eaten, the drive that makes people fight and make (in angelic eyes) poor moral choices ('she's doing WHAT for food?') might be understood in a technical sense but without the keen understanding that a fellow human whose been hungry can. I am not discounting the time thing, but it's sort of like the Endless of Neil Gaiman: yeah, they got forever so they aren't afraid of long term plans, but they still live every day 24/7 like the rest of us. Every day brings it's own surprises, emergencies and necessities to keep one engaged in the here and now....mostly. Probably less in Hell, but more on Earth. But I can see the 'I'll get an answer to you' taking a lot more time than one expects barring emergencies. __________________ Curtis Says: Remember to take your Shots. And use a tight grouping.

07-06-2013, 12:39 PM	#10
Jason Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Boston, MA	Re: What is the main psychological difference One of the cool things about In Nomine as a setting, I think, is that it gives tools and suggestions to let you answer this thread's question more than one way, depending on what you want to focus on. Personally, in my campaign, the answer is "not much at all, really." Psychologically, the celestials are generally pretty much like mortals until they start racking up dissonance or discord, at which point their celestial-ness really starts to seep through: overzealousness, feeling temporarily blinded or deaf when they can't use their resonance as effectively, claustrophobic terror at being bound into their vessel, and so on. Most of the time, though, we play them like people caught up in an absurd bureaucratic hierarchy, constantly trying to poach talent from the rival organization ... just on a more fantastical scale. I've made characters and stories that explore this other ways, though, and consider celestials as more alien. When I do that, I'd say the distinguishing psychological feature of celestials is certainty. Angels know they're right about the meaning of life, and they know they can trust their senses in at least one facet of social interaction (through their resonance). Demons know they have the power to define their own "meaning of life," and they can trust in their own ability to impose that on the outside world. Celestials don't have as much uncertainty as mortals about their place in the world, and that certainty (especially if played with disregard for mortal opinions' of them) makes them seem very alien.