[Supers] GURPS Unofficial Handbook to the Marvel Universe, Reboot Edition

[chandley]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Isn't this covered by "Affected By True Faith"?

Affected by True Faith means the actual Advantage can keep them at bay. Classic vampires are also kept at bay by a religious symbol NOT backed by the True Faith advantage, and so have a Dread _as well_. These stack. True Faith will keep that at bay to 1 yard, and then the Dreads radius is added to it.

That appears to be how Baron Janos Telkozep works, and he was built before GURPS Zombies came out, where that interaction is made explict (see Gurps Zombies p.61).

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by chandley

Affected by True Faith means the actual Advantage can keep them at bay. Classic vampires are also kept at bay by a religious symbol NOT backed by the True Faith advantage, and so have a Dread _as well_. These stack. True Faith will keep that at bay to 1 yard, and then the Dreads radius is added to it.

That appears to be how Baron Janos Telkozep works, and he was built before GURPS Zombies came out, where that interaction is made explict (see Gurps Zombies p.61).

Note, though, the limitation on the Dread, which is "must be wielded by a Believer in order to work!" That, I think, is what he's pointing to for making it "covered by Affected By True Faith".

So, how closely does the combination of Supernatural Durability and Unkillable 2, with their present mods, match the flavor text? I was presuming the three listed methods of killing the vampire to be "one" bit.

Also, does "death by sunlight" count as a separate Achilles Heel on Unkillable, or should I just say "Achilles Heel: Beheading or Sunlight"?

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

Note, though, the limitation on the Dread, which is "must be wielded by a Believer in order to work!" That, I think, is what he's pointing to for making it "covered by Affected By True Faith".

So, how closely does the combination of Supernatural Durability and Unkillable 2, with their present mods, match the flavor text? I was presuming the three listed methods of killing the vampire to be "one" bit.

Also, does "death by sunlight" count as a separate Achilles Heel on Unkillable, or should I just say "Achilles Heel: Beheading or Sunlight"?

Current build:
Supernatural Durability (?Beheading?) [150];
Unkillable 2 (Achilles Heel: Beheading, -50%; Hindrance: Silver or Wooden Stake in the Heart, -5%; Magical, -10%) [35];
Vulnerability to Silver (×3) [-15];
Weakness to Holy Symbols or Holy Water) (1d per 5 minutes) [-10];
Weakness to Sunlight (1d per minute) [-60].


Vulnerability to Silver negates Supernatural Durability, but doesn't bypass Unkillable; it just makes it easier to behead them.
Weakness to Holy Symbols or Holy Water and Sunlight can't kill them, they just make it easier to behead them.
Doing 10XHP will negate Supernatural Durability but doesn't bypass Unkillable; it just makes it easier to behead them. But you don't need to do 10XHP to the neck to kill them, 6XHP will do, maybe even 2XHP.

Why are you even giving the both Supernatural Durability and Unkillable? there's a lot of overlap. What is it you want them to have? How about:

Injury Tolerance (No Blood; Unliving) [25]; Injury Tolerance (No Vitals; not vs. Piercing and impaling wooden and silver to the heart, -5 penalty to hit -?40?%) [3];
Immunity to Pain (Bane vs. Fire, Silver, Sunlight -?80?%) [?6?] + Low Pain Threshold (Only Vs. Fire, Silver, Sunlight -?80?) [?2?]
Immunity to Unconsciousness (Not vs Staking -??%) [??]
Unkillable 2 (Achilles Heels: Beheading, Fire, Holy Symbols or Holy Water, Sunlight, -80%; Hindrance: Silver or Wooden Stake in the Heart, -5%; Magical, -10%) [20];

Vulnerability to Silver (×3) [-15];
Weakness to Holy Symbols or Holy Water) (1d per 5 minutes) [-10];
Weakness to Sunlight (1d per minute) [-60].

[chandley]

Originally Posted by tbrock1031

Note, though, the limitation on the Dread, which is "must be wielded by a Believer in order to work!" That, I think, is what he's pointing to for making it "covered by Affected By True Faith".

Believer != True Faith. Or... if it DOES, that should be made more explicit, and then the quirk "Affected by True Faith" would in fact be the appropriate version of Dread to use. True Faith mentions that not every believer has it. In fact, it is rare enough that it doesnt even count as a rare source for Dread or Weakness, hence lowering a Dread of True Faith to quirk level.

I totally see "Must believe in the faith of the religious icon being presented" as a valid sub category of a generalized dread of religious icons. Atheists cant present a cross and expect results, but a church goer could. And there are enough folks who believe in varous religions to make up a common category.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by chandley

Believer != True Faith. Or... if it DOES, that should be made more explicit, and then the quirk "Affected by True Faith" would in fact be the appropriate version of Dread to use. True Faith mentions that not every believer has it. In fact, it is rare enough that it doesnt even count as a rare source for Dread or Weakness, hence lowering a Dread of True Faith to quirk level.

I totally see "Must believe in the faith of the religious icon being presented" as a valid sub category of a generalized dread of religious icons. Atheists cant present a cross and expect results, but a church goer could. And there are enough folks who believe in varous religions to make up a common category.

That likely bogs down into the real world issue of whether people that say they believe X really believe X and the ever common No True Scotsman Fallacy.
I would err on the side of assuming anyone with a quirk level religion counts as a believer.

Dread is supposed to be a significant disadvantage, not cutesy quirk that is near useless to enemies.
Even as an atheist, if I KNEW believing in crosses kept vampires at bay, would that alone be enough belief? Fear can make people believe all sorts of things they wouldn't otherwise.

[chandley]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

That likely bogs down into the real world issue of whether people that say they believe X really believe X and the ever common No True Scotsman Fallacy.
I would err on the side of assuming anyone with a quirk level religion counts as a believer.

Dread is supposed to be a significant disadvantage, not cutesy quirk that is near useless to enemies.
Even as an atheist, if I KNEW believing in crosses kept vampires at bay, would that alone be enough belief? Fear can make people believe all sorts of things they wouldn't otherwise.

I agree, if they say the believe, it should trigger the Dread. When I say != True Faith, I mean the GURPS Advantage, not a generalized "true to the faith". The True Faith advantage is not something everyone who goes to church, however devoutly has. So if you have a Dread of "Religious symbols presented by believers", that is probably a common category. Plenty of Believers out there. If you have "Dread of True Faith (the advantage)", that is canonically a quirk, it is too rare to be a significant disad. If you have the former Dread, and a believer presents a religious icon and backs it up with the True Faith advantage, you get hemmed out to the distance of your Dread, plus the distance of the True Faith advantage.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

That likely bogs down into the real world issue of whether people that say they believe X really believe X and the ever common No True Scotsman Fallacy.
I would err on the side of assuming anyone with a quirk level religion counts as a believer.

Dread is supposed to be a significant disadvantage, not cutesy quirk that is near useless to enemies.
Even as an atheist, if I KNEW believing in crosses kept vampires at bay, would that alone be enough belief? .

Well...no. This was established when Wolverine tried the cross thing and it didn't work. But anything short of being an atheist or adherent of a different religion would do the trick. True Faith requires you to be in the running for sainthood. Using a cross on a Marvel vampire just requires that the cross be a meaningful symbol to you.

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Well...no. This was established when Wolverine tried the cross thing and it didn't work. But anything short of being an atheist or adherent of a different religion would do the trick. True Faith requires you to be in the running for sainthood. Using a cross on a Marvel vampire just requires that the cross be a meaningful symbol to you.

Sainthood is Catholic, I believe. But I think that I get your point and agree with it.
True Faith is, and should be, a powerful rare ability, not possessed by any run of the mill non-magical zealot.

I wonder if a Satanist turning the cross upside down would count.

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

I wonder if a Satanist turning the cross upside down would count.

So long as the Satanist believed in "Satan über Alles", then I'd say yes. :)

Where is "Affected By True Faith" listed as a Quirk? I've always seen it listed as a 0-point Feature, albeit in the undead and demon templates in Magic.

As it is, I intended the Dread to be triggered not by the ultra-rare True Faith advantage - to be honest, I can only think of two people in the entire Marvel Universe who might have True Faith: a non-villain antagonist of Thor's named the Crusader, and the younger Caretaker over in Ghost Rider - but by a religious symbol held by anyone with the much more common Devout Believer Quirk. Nightcrawler, being a Devout Catholic, was able to hold off Dracula; Sprite, being a Devout Jew, accidentally hurt him with light glinting off the Star of David worn on her necklace. Wolverine, being more of a nature adherent than any kind of believing Christian, failed epically when he tried the cross.

(Ironically, this might even cue a Devout Trekkie holding a vampire at bay with the Vulcan salute, as depicted over in early strips of Fans!, though that'd be a GM's ruling rather than canonical.)

[Flyndaran]

Affected by True Faith is a feature. But I think the previous poster meant DREAD of True Faith works as a quirk to increase the distance it works from.