[Supers] 21st DCU Golden Age (DC Nerfed)

[AlexanderHowl]

Officially, that would be the Enhanced ST advantage from Biotech. A primary reason to list the Lifting ST and Striking ST as separate attributes is that they can be treated differently than ST when it comes to Extra Effort (Powers, p. 160-161). A character with ST 40 cannot use Extra Effort to increase their ST for damage purposes, but a character with Striking ST+30 can use Extra Effort to increase the effective bonus given by Striking ST. In situations where characters have access to Godlike Extra Effort, it can actually make sense to give Lifting ST and Striking ST the Reliable modifier, as it would add to their Extra Effort rolls.

For example, a character with Will 20, Body Control 4, ER 100 (Super), and Lifting ST+30 (Reliable 10, +50%; Super, -10%) could use Godlike Extra Effort to push their Lifting ST bonus up to +3030 on a 14- through spending their entire ER on one action. That would be the equivalent of Lifting ST 19 (Super, -10%; Super-Effort, +400%) though, so it is questionable concerning the utility of such a build. Where such shenanigans really matter is with stuff like Innate Attack though, where increasing damage from 3d to 303d can matter a whole lot when making glass cannons.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

A character with ST 40 cannot use Extra Effort to increase their ST for damage purposes

Where do you see that? It looks like Lifting/Striking ST is just an example, not that ST is prohibited from any form of EE.

[AlexanderHowl]

Attributes follow their own Extra Effort rules (Basic, p. 356-357). Extra Effort in Combat is covered in that section and only allows Mighty Blows to increase damage. When it comes to ST-based extra effort, it is restricted to improving Basic Lift and improving ST for throwing, making a single ST roll, and cocking/drawing a crossbow/bow. Since improving Lifting ST is much more effective than improving Basic Lift (and improving Striking ST is probably better than Mighty Blows) purchasing Lifting ST/Striking ST is probably better than purchasing ST for Extra Effort purposes only.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Attributes follow their own Extra Effort rules (Basic, p. 356-357). Extra Effort in Combat is covered in that section and only allows Mighty Blows to increase damage.

Eh, that's an odd interpretation. Basic allows specific types of EE. Powers expands that to any active ability. Mighty blows is an optional EE type, but it doesn't prohibit other options later.

When it comes to ST-based extra effort, it is restricted to improving Basic Lift and improving ST for throwing, making a single ST roll, and cocking/drawing a crossbow/bow.

... which isn't a restriction. It's an EE option. Other options aren't covered until Powers.

Since improving Lifting ST is much more effective than improving Basic Lift

I'm not sure what you mean here. The example in Supers shows that god-like EE increases your total BL not your levels of Lifting ST. The example in Powers increases levels by % which is the same for +10 of one ability or +10 of another ability.

Another reason to favor increasing ST rather than 2 separate advantages is for throwing. Even if you allow Lifting and Striking ST to each help with throwing, that's two separate abilities for EE at once rather than increasing your ST to do one action.

[AlexanderHowl]

Powers specifically allows for the direct improvement of the ST bonus from Lifting ST and Striking ST. For improving throwing, I tend to prefer using Enhanced ST.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Powers specifically allows for the direct improvement of the ST bonus from Lifting ST and Striking ST.

Powers allows for the direct improvement of any active ability. I'd guess it's intended for anything with a PM, but it's certainly not restricted to only the examples listed.

For improving throwing, I tend to prefer using Enhanced ST.

I don't have Bio-Tech, but I gather that's essentially what I was calling ST! or Fixed ST.

[pawsplay]

Originally Posted by naloth

As I put in another post, Comics Code doesn't mean the present agency's rules on publication. I was using it as defined in Supers to restrict Clark to natural weaponry, fighting honorably, and protecting innocents. It doesn't restrict your ability to use lethal force or intimidate others as long as long as you're doing it for the greater good.

Early Clark definitely doesn't fight honorably. Intimidation was definitely banned by the Comics Code, and the CC was also the reason for vastly decreasing Superman and Batman's lethality, beyond editorial decisions.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

Early Clark definitely doesn't fight honorably. Intimidation was definitely banned by the Comics Code, and the CC was also the reason for vastly decreasing Superman and Batman's lethality, beyond editorial decisions.

I'm referring to the code as described in Supers rather than the provisions required to get the Comic Code Authority seal. The CCA objected to terror, some expressions, necklines, and other things we would consider trivial these days.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by naloth

Fixed ST would work, but it's described slightly differently in Supers even though it's just a Lifting + Striking ST metatrait.

That's because it's intended to represent powered armor and exoskeleta whose force output is a set level. It doesn't matter if it's Bruce Banner, Tony Stark, or James Rhodes wearing the Iron Man armor; their strength doesn't add meaningfully to its output. And if Clark Kent puts it on, he either reaches a point where pushing it any harder won't produce greater output, or he breaks it by using his own full strength.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Officially, that would be the Enhanced ST advantage from Biotech.

Do you perhaps mean 'Enhanced Muscles,' in Bio-Tech p213? There doesn't appear to be an Enhanced ST trait in that book, and Enhanced Muscles does exactly what you're describing (Lifting ST+1 and Striking ST+1, totally 8 points per level).