09-10-2011, 03:16 PM | #61 | |
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
|
Re: Rejiggering Muscle-Powered Weapon Damage
Quote:
As an example, if a ST 10 swordsman has a Broadsword skill of 14-, and we say that a one-handed swing attack has a base damage of 3, then the swordsman's final damage would be 4 (base 3 + 1 for the broadsword), modified by the MoS of the hit. With a 14- skill this would mean that if he: Rolls 14 ... Dmg is 1 Rolls 12-13 ... Dmg is 2 Rolls 10-11 ... Dmg is 3 Rolls 8-9 ... Dmg is 4 Rolls 6-7 ... Dmg is 5 Rolls 4-5 ... Dmg is 6 Rolls 3- ...Dmg is 7 |
|
09-10-2011, 03:28 PM | #62 | |
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Cumberland, ME
|
Re: Rejiggering Muscle-Powered Weapon Damage
Quote:
For example, the skill roll to hit, followed by a ST roll with (just to throw numbers around on a fairly abbreviated range instead of trying to cover all possibilities—I haven't actually crunched anything as I'm pressed for time at the moment): Code:
MoS -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 Dmg -2 -2 -1 -1 -1 +0 +0 +0 +1 +1 +1 +2 I know that you're a proponent of extending the Skill-based damage bonus of Weapon Master to apply to all attacks (instead of being limited to WM), and something like the above wouldn't necessarily preclude having skill also play a role. It just seems like ST should be have a part to play as well. |
|
09-10-2011, 03:46 PM | #63 | |
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Oregon
|
Re: Rejiggering Muscle-Powered Weapon Damage
Quote:
This works well for human-centric ST levels, but can't really handle ST outside the 6-20 range. Now, if the MoS damage modifier is a percentage of base damage... But that runs into the issue of GURPS being so very granular. It could work if you allow fractional damage and HP totals for small creatures, but that's probably too complicated. Last edited by vierasmarius; 09-10-2011 at 03:51 PM. |
|
09-10-2011, 03:58 PM | #64 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: The ASS of the world, mainly Valencia, Spain (Europe)
|
Re: Rejiggering Muscle-Powered Weapon Damage
A Spanish RPG game named Anima, Beyond Fantasy has (on top of a system that is rather like the bastard child of Rolemaster, with some simplifications, and without the metric ton of tables) a system that I personally disliked, but that might make sense:
You had your base weapon damage. This was a function of your weapon, and your ST. This is a single number, with no randomness. The character sheet also has a space for noting the multiples and submultiples if this value, in 10% steps. When you attack, both your and your opponent roll, adding attac/defense, and consult on a table. That table gives you the percentage of your damage that you inflict. What about this? The ST table represents your expected when you have MoS5. MoS 0 gives you 50% of the damage (glancing blow) with each point of MoS giving you +10% of your base damage. Treat each +1 to damage from a weapon as giving you +1 to MoS, IF you make your roll. AoA (Strong) gives you +4 to MoS for damage calculations only, while AoA (Determined) gives you a +4 bonus to hit, but this bonus does not influence MoS for the purposes of damage. Telegraphic Attack also does not change your MoS for damage purposes, as AoA(Determined). Minimum damage is 0.1 base damage. Round damage to the nearest value, remembering that non-crushing damage is min 1. Critical hits have a minimum MoS for damage purposes of 10, before applying modifiers. Per die damage bonuses become MoS bonuses for damage purposes equal to twice the per dice bonus. You thus get a table such as this. Thus, an ST 15 man (a big brute, damage 8 sw/4thr) with a small knife (sw-3 cut/sw-1 imp) deals: MoS 0: 2 cut/2 imp MoS 5: 6 cut/4 imp MoS 10: 10 cut/6 imp Armed with a Mace (sw+3) he would deal MoS 0: 6 cr MoS 5: 10 cr MoS 10: 14 cr Seems workable, but certainly too complex for me. |
09-10-2011, 04:22 PM | #65 | ||
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Stuttgart, Germany
|
Re: Rejiggering Muscle-Powered Weapon Damage
Quote:
So a ST 14 swordsman with Broadsword skill of 14-, has a final damage of 6 (base 5 + 1 for the broadsword), modified by the MoS of the hit. With a 14- skill this would mean that if he: Rolls 14 ... Dmg is 3 Rolls 12-13 ... Dmg is 4 Rolls 10-11 ... Dmg is 5 Rolls 8-9 ... Dmg is 6 Rolls 6-7 ... Dmg is 7 Rolls 4-5 ... Dmg is 8 Rolls 3- ...Dmg is 9 Quote:
With a 25- skill this would mean that if the Halfling: Rolls 15-16 ... Dmg is 2 Rolls 14 or less ... Dmg is 3 With a 10- skill this would mean that if the Ogre: Rolls 10 ... Dmg is 9 Rolls 8-9 ... Dmg is 10 Rolls 6-7 ... Dmg is 11 Rolls 4-5 ... Dmg is 12 Rolls 3- ... Dmg is 13 |
||
09-10-2011, 05:29 PM | #66 | |||
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
|
Re: Rejiggering Muscle-Powered Weapon Damage
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Bullet and bow damage are very much KE based for penetration; that's probably true of melee weapons as well, which means they won't penetrate very well. In terms of blunt trauma, that's how the momentum comes in, and what's not really present right now in GURPS without some work. The scale I posted above is effectively an energy scale as well . . . it scales linearly with ST or sqrt (Basic LIft), which is to say sqrt(Force). Assuming you're applying that force over your reach (a constant distance), one could make the analogy to penetration. The reason I went with +1/3 of a die for each +1 on the tables? well, it sort of is that right now for many weapons. thr+1 in the 1d regime is about +1/3.5 points, or . . . 1/3 of a die. Making it a multiplier to ST instead of straight damage is quite the multiplier: 1.76 times the force . . . that might even be too MUCH.
__________________
My blog:Gaming Ballistic, LLC My Store: Gaming Ballistic on Shopify My Patreon: Gaming Ballistic on Patreon |
|||
09-10-2011, 08:18 PM | #67 |
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Cumberland, ME
|
Re: Rejiggering Muscle-Powered Weapon Damage
That does seem a bit complex, Kuroshima, although the gist of the idea may not be so bad.
And thank you for the explanation / illustration of the MoS thing. That certainly clears up any uncertainty I may have had. What I thought was meant when the MoS issue was originally brought up—which might also be the reason I liked it—was a MoS based on a ST roll in replacement of the usual damage roll. There would be a certain base damage, period, across all ST values. That base would be modified by a weapon modifier, and probably by an attack-type modifier. The below started out as a "quick example of what I'm thinking of." Four and a half hours later, it's ended up being a mostly-completed alternative damage system: Base Damage: 2 (Yes, you heard me. 2. You'll see why in a minute.) Swing Modifier: +1 Thrust Modifier: -1 2H Modifier: +1 Weapon Modifiers: On a one-to-one basis with RAW. Code:
ST MoS -20 -19 -18 -17 -16 -15 -14 -13 -12 -11 -10 -9 -8 -7 -6 -5 -4 -3 -2 -1 Damage -5 -5 -4 -4 -4 -4 -3 -3 -3 -3 -2 -2 -2 -2 -1 -1 -1 -1 +0 +0 ST MoS 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 [+4] Damage +0 +0 +0 +1 +1 +1 +1 +2 +2 +2 +2 +3 +3 +3 +3 +4 +4 +4 +4 [+1] Code:
The ST 10 Broadswordsman Roll 3 4-7 8-12 13-16 17-18 ST Bonus to Damage +2 +1 +0 -1 -2 Total Damage 6 5 4 3 2 It also means that he will only beat the DR 4 of Fine Mail or Medium Scale about 16.2% of the time, and then not by very much. A bit of padded cloth should fix that up just fine. Average damage for the ST 10 swordsman is 3.89. So how about for stronger swordsmen? Code:
The ST 12 Broadswordsman Roll 3-5 6-9 10-14 15-18 ST Bonus to Damage +2 +1 +0 -1 Total Damage 6 5 4 3 The ST 14 Broadswordsman Roll 3 4-7 8-12 13-16 17-18 ST Bonus to Damage +3 +2 +1 +0 -1 Total Damage 7 6 5 4 3 The ST 14 swordsman, meanwhile, has a clear edge. His odds: 0.46% for 7 damage, 15.7% for 6, 46.3% for 5, 35.6% for 4, and a meager 1.9% for 3 damage. He will beat DR 4 a solid 62.5% of the time. Average damage is 4.77. Here, 97.7% of the swordsman's blows will deal between 4 and 6 damage (compared to 3 and 5 for the ST 10 fighter). Average damage is 4.77. So, how about that ST 20 ogre? Code:
ST 20 Ogre, SM+1 Two-Handed Mace Roll 3-5 6-9 10-13 14-17 18 ST Bonus to Damage +4 +3 +2 -1 +0 Total Damage 14 13 12 10 9 By comparison, the average damage on a successful attack for Ze'Manel Cunha's ogre above—if that ogre had also been using an SM+1 two-handed mace instead of an SM+0 one—is about 12.18. With SM+0 maces, the average damages are 10.25 (here) and 10.18 (above). ------------------------------ Some Wrap-up Thoughts * I love the reduced variability. * For Committed and All-Out Attack (Strong), my inclination is to have them give +2 / +4 to the ST roll. This would put the ST 10 guy on equal footing with ST 12 and ST 14, respectively, which is the same as in RAW. Yes, the absolute impact is lower, but when variability is low and armor is in play, that could be a very important boost. * By the same token, and for the same RAW-relative parallel, I would give things like Defensive Attack and similar damage-adjusting options (Defensive Grip, Reverse Grip, etc.) the same treatment: Double whatever their usual effect is, and apply it to the ST roll. * If you wanted to add a skill-related bonus—and that might not be a bad idea when your margins are this low— you could say that Skill at DX+1 gives +1 to the ST roll, and Skill at DX+2 or better gives +2 to the ST roll. Weapon Master would double that bonus to +2/+4, putting the Skill DX+2, ST 10 Swordmaster on equal footing with the DX+0, ST 14 hack-and-slasher. Which, once again, is the same relative effect as Weapon Master currently has. * I deliberately omitted an example for the ST 5, Knife-wielding Halfling. This is because the best roll he can get is MoS 2, which gives +0 to damage. He's operating at Base 2, +1 for swinging, -3 for the weapon, so his damage at MoS 2 is zero. Once he hits MoS -3 on a roll of 8, his damage is negative, and it goes downhill from there. If he thrusts, he's in the same boat: Base 2, -1 for thrusting, -1 for weapon. The lesson? ST 5 halflings shouldn't be using SM-2 small knives anyway. Of course, cutting and impaling attacks that beat DR can't do any less than 1 damage, so he's still capable of harming an unarmored opponent. However! If he uses an SM-2 broadsword (MinST 5, +1 cutting, per LTC 2), his damage ranges from 1 (on a roll of 16-18) to 4 (on a roll of 3-7). So a properly-equipped SM-2, ST 5 halfling can still smack somebody, provided they have , at best, light armor. If fighting a large or decently-armored opponent, though, the halfling will want to avail himself of an SM-2 dueling glaive, long spear, or similar weapon (to get the +1 for a two-handed attack). * Unarmed fighting—especially at DX+0 skill—is just plain bad, with Base 0 damage after the Thrust and "Weapon" modifiers. Refer to the ST 10 broadswordsman, but subtract 2 from all of his damage results. That said, I don't think that this is unreasonable, either, especially for Average-ST, basically-unskilled punchers who aren't making Committed or All-Out Attacks. * No, this doesn't eliminate the damage roll. It just replaces it. I'm okay with a mechanic that ends up with a net +0 total rolls involved. * The MoS table above is actually completely unnecessary—I just presented it to show lots of numbers together for an eyeball look at how the ST MoS broke down. All it really is is the formula "Modifier = 1/4 MoS, with half-points rounding towards zero." * The progression of average damage largely meets the criterion of making damage scale linearly with ST. For a SM+0 broadsword (which I'm using as a constant in this case just to avoid negative-damage results for very-low-ST figures): From ST 1 to ST 4, each +1 ST gives +0.25 average damage. From ST 4 to ST 7, each +1 ST gives +0.24 average damage. From ST 7 to ST 14, each +1 ST gives +0.22 average damage. From ST 14 to ST 17, each +1 ST gives +0.24 average damage. From ST 17 and up, each +1 ST gives +0.25 average damage. And there that is. Whew. Last edited by Landwalker; 09-11-2011 at 08:27 AM. Reason: Fixing the ogre and average damage numbers. Added comment about linear damage scaling.. |
09-11-2011, 12:07 AM | #68 |
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Not in your time zone:D
|
Re: Rejiggering Muscle-Powered Weapon Damage
Where I'm at myself: ST based damage more linear, Sw approx 1.5*Th, Weapons mods are relative, MoS affects damage.
To reduce the ST dam variable, you could make all damage dice Averaging dice (1 = 3, 6 = 4), but Sw damage is a fraction lower. Margin of Success: for MoS 0 = 1/2 damage; for MoS ≥5 +1 per die. Weapon damage mod is per 2 dice, which has little effect until ST20 Sw, unless you apply it as +2 weapon dam for a 1d attack is just +1. ST based damage Dice: Thrust = (ST x 0.45 – 3) /3.5; Swing = (ST x 0.68 – 3) /3.5. The change to Thrust only comes in at the high end. The change to Swing begins at ST11, with lower damage until ST45. Code:
ST Thrust Swing ST Thrust Swing ST Thrust Swing ST Thrust Swing ST Thrust Swing 1 1d-6 1d-5 14 1d 2d-1 27 3d-1 4d 40 4d+1 6d+2 110 13d+1 19d+1 2 1d-6 1d-5 15 1d+1 2d 28 3d-1 4d+1 45 5d 7d+1 120 14d+2 21d 3 1d-5 1d-4 16 1d+1 2d 29 3d 4d+2 50 5d+2 8d 130 16d 23d 4 1d-5 1d-4 17 1d+2 2d+1 30 3d 4d+2 55 6d+1 9d 140 17d 25d-1 5 1d-4 1d-3 18 1d+2 2d+2 31 3d+1 5d-1 60 7d 10d 150 18d+1 26d+2 6 1d-4 1d-3 19 2d-1 2d+2 32 3d+1 5d 65 7d+2 11d 175 21d+2 31d 7 1d-3 1d-2 20 2d-1 3d-1 33 3d+2 5d+1 70 8d 12d 200 25d 35d+2 8 1d-3 1d-2 21 2d 3d 34 3d+2 5d+2 75 9d 13d 225 28d 40d+1 9 1d-2 1d-1 22 2d 3d+1 35 4d-1 5d+2 80 9d+2 14d 250 31d+1 45d 10 1d-2 1d 23 2d+1 3d+1 36 4d-1 6d-1 85 10d 15d 275 34d+2 49d+1 11 1d-1 1d 24 2d+1 3d+2 37 4d 6d 90 11d-1 16d 300 38d-1 54d 12 1d-1 1d+1 25 2d+2 4d-1 38 4d 6d 95 11d+1 17d 350 44d 63d 13 1d 1d+1 26 2d+2 4d 39 4d+1 6d+1 100 12d 18d 400 50d+2 72d+1 ST12 1d/ RAW 2d-1 HR 1d+1, gives 1d+1/ RAW 2d+1 HR 1d+2 and ST17 1d+2/ RAW 3d-1 HR 2d+1 gives 1d+2/ RAW 3d+1 HR 2d+3
__________________
"Sanity is a bourgeois meme." Exegeek PS sorry I'm a Parthian shootist: shiftwork + out of country = not here when you are:/ It's all in the reflexes Last edited by jacobmuller; 09-11-2011 at 12:17 AM. |
09-11-2011, 08:18 AM | #69 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: in your pocket, stealing all your change
|
Re: Rejiggering Muscle-Powered Weapon Damage
I'm going to commit a little heresy here, I'm going to suggest that using non 6-sided dice might get the variability down and make armor more effective.
For this exercise I decided to use the same scaling up of sw damage as we use for thr damage, only give it a little advantage. That way swing damage is a little more attractive in raw damage terms, but doesn't take off on a whole level of it's own as the table goes on. The assumption is +1 point of average damage per 2 levels of ST, I kept them going up for add and even numbers separately for sw and thr, so that you always get something up with you increase ST. Variability of damage was reduced to 33% (I felt it should be more variable than firearms, but not so variable as it is). Here's what I got: Code:
Thr Sw ST1 -3 to -2 (1d2-4) -2 to -1 (1d2-3) ST2 -3 to -2 (1d2-4) -1 to 0 (1d2-2) ST3 -2 to -1 (1d2-3) -1 to 0 (1d2-2) ST4 -2 to -1 (1d2-3) 0 to 1 (1d2-1) ST5 -1 to 0 (1d2-2) 0 to 1 (1d2-1) ST6 -1 to 0 (1d2-2) 1 to 2 (1d2) ST7 0 to 1 (1d2-1) 1 to 2 (1d2) ST8 0 to 1 (1d2-1) 2 to 3 (1d2+1) ST9 1 to 2 (1d2) 2 to 3 (1d2+1) ST10 1 to 2 (1d2) 2 to 5 (1d4+1) ST11 2 to 3 (1d2+1) 2 to 5 (1d4+1) ST12 2 to 3 (1d2+1) 3 to 6 (1d4+2) ST13 2 to 5 (1d4+1) 3 to 6 (1d4+2) ST14 2 to 5 (1d4+1) 4 to 7 (1d4+3) ST15 3 to 6 (1d4+2) 4 to 7 (1d4+3) ST16 3 to 6 (1d4+2) 4 to 9 (1d6+3) ST17 4 to 7 (1d4+3) 4 to 9 (1d6+3) ST18 4 to 7 (1d4+3) 5 to 10 (1d6+4) ST19 4 to 9 (1d6+3) 5 to 10 (1d6+4) ST20 4 to 9 (1d6+3) 6 to 11 (1d6+5) ST21 5 to 10 (1d6+4) 6 to 11 (1d6+5) ST22 5 to 10 (1d6+4) 6 to 13 (1d8+5) ST23 6 to 11 (1d6+5) 6 to 13 (1d8+5) ST24 6 to 11 (1d6+5) 7 to 14 (1d8+6) ST25 6 to 13 (1d8+5) 7 to 14 (1d8+6) ST26 6 to 13 (1d8+5) 8 to 15 (1d8+7) ST27 7 to 14 (1d8+6) 8 to 15 (1d8+7) ST28 7 to 14 (1d8+6) 8 to 17 (1d10+7) ST29 8 to 15 (1d8+7) 8 to 17 (1d10+7) ST30 8 to 15 (1d8+7) 9 to 18 (1d10+8) For thrust, it maintains the same damage progression and the same average damage (except on higher levels, because GURPS adds more dice, changing the progression slightly, while I used a flat +1 to average damaage, starting at 2.5 average damage at ST10). For swing, I used the same progression as thrust, only slightly displaced, which means that swing always does +1 or +2 damage compared to thrust, but that's about it. This has the nice side-effect of making each +1 to ST equal in benefits, before, even numbers got you only +1 to sw, and odd levels got you +1 to sw and thr. Anyway, food for thought, chomp away... |
11-01-2013, 04:55 PM | #70 |
Join Date: Dec 2012
|
Re: Rejiggering Muscle-Powered Weapon Damage
I was thinking about a different way of increasing the effectiveness of armor. I think with the edged weapons doing blunt armor rule armor acts relatively realistically; fine mail, for example, stands up fairly realistically to an average swordsman's average AOA (ST 11, 2d-1, averages 6 dmg, so 2cr dmg gets past DR, this seems realistic enough to me, only cutting through on an 10-12 dice result, or 1/6 of the time). The problem comes with spears and average AOAs. I think impaling weapons should have a similar rule for armor as cutting weapons, only maybe something like they need to defeat more than 1.5 DR to do their full impaling dmg, otherwise it is cr. I have seen video demos of people trying to stab through mail with what would be an AOA (holding a sword by the hit with one hand and the blade with the other and stabbing, the mail was over boiled leather on a pig carcas), the result was the blade penetrated a little, so would have cut and hurt, but no "impaling". The result of this new rule would be that a ST 11 warrior AOA one handed with a spear against fine mail for the same 2d6-1, again averaging 6 dmg, but the DR threashold for impailing is 1.5*4=6, on average the attack will only do 2cr dmg, but will not penetrate the mail and impail the wearer. A two handed thrust, however, will on average, but this is okay woth me given that a spear is designed as a penetrating weapon.
There are a few reasons that I like this change. First, it is a way of increasing the effectiveness of DR without having to change firearm dmg as it is piecing. Second, this means that impaling weapons also realistically do some damage to an armored person before they impale him (like Frodo in Moria :-) ). Third, it seems to still retain the impailing weapon advantage vs armor over cutting weapons without making it unrealistic (got to do 10 dmg with a lance now to pierce jousting mail instead of just 7, but 7 to 9 still hurts). Fourth, the ST progression stays the same, so no weird useless ST values for damage and no change in point value for ST. Finally, the weapon damage vs HP stays the same, which I like. A ST 11 spearman stabbing me in the torso with no armor is going to probably end the fight even if no vitals are hit. Thoughts? Last edited by phayman53; 11-01-2013 at 04:58 PM. |
Tags |
combat, house rules |
|
|