Building better Supers templates

[Randyman]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

I'm not necessarily claiming that slavish imitation of what's on the screen in Avengers gets you equal point totals for all the main heroes. I'm more thinking in terms of how the Monster Hunters series takes what we see in Buffy the Vampire Slayer and comes up with a set of templates which all the same point value and which roughly correspond to Buffy and other Slayers (Warrior), Angel/Spike (Inhuman), Giles (Sage), Willow (Witch), and even Riley (Experiment).

If you want the MCU, start with Monster Hunters templates and adjust using Supers. Here's how I match the MCU Avengers to MH templates:
Character: Template/Lens (Notes)

Captain America: Experiment/Operative (Soldier for the Lens back in WWII; arguably for current day as well. The Shield is Signature Gear; there are pretty good stats for it in Supers.)

Tony Stark: Techie/Philanthropist (straight Wealth for the Lens. The Iron Man suit is Signature Gear; call it superscience to avoid questions of High TL)

Hulk: Ethomorph/Atoner (the Template is from Pyramid 3/31)

Black Widow: Sleuth/Operative (the Template comes from the mind game she pulled on Loki. Give her access to Gun-Fu's Double Trouble and the Fist! wildcard for her combat moves.)

Hawkeye: Archer/Operative (Warrior variant; see link for details)

Thor: Angel/Chosen One (tweak the Template by dropping the Wings)

[Infornific]

Originally Posted by Randyman

If you want the MCU, start with Monster Hunters templates and adjust using Supers. Here's how I match the MCU Avengers to MH templates:
Character: Template/Lens (Notes)

Captain America: Experiment/Operative (Soldier for the Lens back in WWII; arguably for current day as well. The Shield is Signature Gear; there are pretty good stats for it in Supers.)

Tony Stark: Techie/Philanthropist (straight Wealth for the Lens. The Iron Man suit is Signature Gear; call it superscience to avoid questions of High TL)

Hulk: Ethomorph/Atoner (the Template is from Pyramid 3/31)

Black Widow: Sleuth/Operative (the Template comes from the mind game she pulled on Loki. Give her access to Gun-Fu's Double Trouble and the Fist! wildcard for her combat moves.)

Hawkeye: Archer/Operative (Warrior variant; see link for details)

Thor: Angel/Chosen One (tweak the Template by dropping the Wings)

That might work for Avengers lite, but you'd need a lot more points for the movie versions. 400 points is about right for street level supers (as mentioned, Buffy, Angel etc are good examples) but 800 is more appropriate for starting full blown supers. To give a sense of scale, figure that the experienced agents on Agents of Shield are at least in the 250 point range and probably more like 400 - Coulson seems like a boosted Investigator, Grant shows exceptional skill at gunplay, hand to hand and general spycraft, Melinda May is at the same level, etc. And Black Widow is head and shoulder above these.

Of course it's easier to power up than down so it might make more sense to start with 400 point templates and add lenses to boost them.

[Randyman]

Originally Posted by Infornific

That might work for Avengers lite, but you'd need a lot more points for the movie versions. 400 points is about right for street level supers (as mentioned, Buffy, Angel etc are good examples) but 800 is more appropriate for starting full blown supers. To give a sense of scale, figure that the experienced agents on Agents of Shield are at least in the 250 point range and probably more like 400 - Coulson seems like a boosted Investigator, Grant shows exceptional skill at gunplay, hand to hand and general spycraft, Melinda May is at the same level, etc. And Black Widow is head and shoulder above these.

Of course it's easier to power up than down so it might make more sense to start with 400 point templates and add lenses to boost them.

I agree fully. I'll make no claim that the MCU Avengers are 400 point GURPS characters as shown on film. The correspondence with the MH templates was simply conceptual.

[Michael Thayne]

In hopes of reviving this thread...

Who are the ~10 fictional supers you'd want to see used as the basis for templates in an I-scale GURPS supers game that runs around 1000 points? Some ideas:

• X-Woman Storm (Basically the Weatherworker template from Supers, nice variety of powers that still fit a theme, can fill the "blaster" role. Alternatively, reconceive the character as an "elementalist")
• Iron Man (Dreadnought template from Supers, mainly like this one because Iron Man has gotten such a nice treatment in the MCU, need to change the Supers template to include Flight and better weapons, because Iron Man wouldn't be Iron Man without those things.
• The Thing (Brick, doesn't transform the way Hulk/Colossus do which makes things somewhat more straightforward, I think)
• Deadpool (heavy use of weapons fits the realistic GURPS emphasis on them, template would focus on skills but have some powers to make sure the character can play in the big leagues)
• Flash/Quicksilver (Speedster, duh)
• Dr. Strange/Scarlet Witch/Teen Titan Raven (Magic seems like too popular a role to ignore)

Who else? Note that just because a superhero is cool, doesn't mean they fit well into GURPS the RPG. Having powers extremely focused on one thing doesn't always make the most valuable RPG party member, if the GM doesn't want to include lots of "This looks like a job for Aquaman"-type elements in the adventures.

[Randyman]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

In hopes of reviving this thread...

Who are the ~10 fictional supers you'd want to see used as the basis for templates in an I-scale GURPS supers game that runs around 1000 points? Some ideas:

• X-Woman Storm (Basically the Weatherworker template from Supers, nice variety of powers that still fit a theme, can fill the "blaster" role. Alternatively, reconceive the character as an "elementalist")
• Iron Man (Dreadnought template from Supers, mainly like this one because Iron Man has gotten such a nice treatment in the MCU, need to change the Supers template to include Flight and better weapons, because Iron Man wouldn't be Iron Man without those things.
• The Thing (Brick, doesn't transform the way Hulk/Colossus do which makes things somewhat more straightforward, I think)
• Deadpool (heavy use of weapons fits the realistic GURPS emphasis on them, template would focus on skills but have some powers to make sure the character can play in the big leagues)
• Flash/Quicksilver (Speedster, duh)
• Dr. Strange/Scarlet Witch/Teen Titan Raven (Magic seems like too popular a role to ignore)

Who else? Note that just because a superhero is cool, doesn't mean they fit well into GURPS the RPG. Having powers extremely focused on one thing doesn't always make the most valuable RPG party member, if the GM doesn't want to include lots of "This looks like a job for Aquaman"-type elements in the adventures.

1. Mr. Terrific/Doc Savage (Renaissance Man template/Polymath; Reed Richards doesn't quite meet the physical standards apart from his powers)
2. Captain America/Deathstroke (Man Plus template/Super Soldier)
3. I've read elsewhere on these boards a recommendation that a battlesuit be treated as an Alternate Form; honestly, that's the only way I could see doing justice to an analogue of Tony Stark, given his supergenius, gadgeteering, and wealth and social status apart from the suit.
4. I'd add Zatanna as an exemplar of the Magic type, as well; personal bias if nothing else.

Honestly, I think Supers has a strong selection of archetypes that would fit what you are aiming at here; revising the templates to the current state-of-the-art for GURPS templates may be the right approach. Some of them would have to be beefed up to 1000 points (Man-Plus, Renaissance Man, Sifu) while the Archetype likely wouldn't work if toned down to 1000 points.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Randyman

Some of them would have to be beefed up to 1000 points (Man-Plus, Renaissance Man, Sifu) while the Archetype likely wouldn't work if toned down to 1000 points.

The original Superman very likely was around a 1000-point character.

I was just reading Stranger, by Rachel Manija Brown and Sherwood Smith. It has some interesting variations on the "super" formula in a postapocalyptic setting. Early on, there is a scene where the town sheriff picks up a skinny eighteen-year-old boy, gets him across her shoulders, and carries him back to town—at 50 mph! That's not even at the original Superman level, but it still evokes the Archetype concept, I think.

Bill Stoddard

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Randyman

1. Mr. Terrific/Doc Savage (Renaissance Man template/Polymath; Reed Richards doesn't quite meet the physical standards apart from his powers)
2. Captain America/Deathstroke (Man Plus template/Super Soldier)
3. I've read elsewhere on these boards a recommendation that a battlesuit be treated as an Alternate Form; honestly, that's the only way I could see doing justice to an analogue of Tony Stark, given his supergenius, gadgeteering, and wealth and social status apart from the suit.
4. I'd add Zatanna as an exemplar of the Magic type, as well; personal bias if nothing else.

Honestly, I think Supers has a strong selection of archetypes that would fit what you are aiming at here; revising the templates to the current state-of-the-art for GURPS templates may be the right approach. Some of them would have to be beefed up to 1000 points (Man-Plus, Renaissance Man, Sifu) while the Archetype likely wouldn't work if toned down to 1000 points.

The thing I'm having trouble with is that some of them scale up rather awkwardly to the 1000 point level, in a way that can end up being redundant with other templates. Something like the Dreadnought seems like the natural way to scale up the Techno. Combining the Man Plus and the Renaissance Man seems like a natural move at 1000 points, and even then it may be tricky to come up with enough worthwhile things to spend all the points on–hence I'd suggest taking it in a Deadpool-like direction. With Blasters, I worry about overspecialization (hence why I like the Weatherworker).

Incidentally: where's a good fictional model for a telepath/illusionist type who doesn't need to be rendered useless in order for the plot to work?

[Culture20]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Something like the Dreadnought seems like the natural way to scale up the Techno.

Because you're thinking of Iron Man. In Marvel, there's also Fixer (aka Techno) who doesn't have a battlesuit, but instead has a gadget "tech-pack" which provides gadget Modular Abilities, up to and including placing his mind into a computer to save his life.

Incidentally: where's a good fictional model for a telepath/illusionist type who doesn't need to be rendered useless in order for the plot to work?

Can't think of a specific example, but someone who has a +10% Link between a mind reading and psychic attack, so that they can't ruin the plot by turning all the dinner party guests into drooling imbeciles for the next 48 hours in the hope that one of them is the murderer (it's always the last one whose mind you flay).
Edit: Melek from Marvel's District X can't read minds; he can only communicate telepathically and extend the range of other psychic's powers. Not really a 1000 point character though.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

Incidentally: where's a good fictional model for a telepath/illusionist type who doesn't need to be rendered useless in order for the plot to work?

Define "rendered useless", especially as we've been discussing a lot of Marvel and extra especially for those like myself that grew up reading those comics where counters to specific abilities were common place (at least for other supers, elite government agencies, etc.). Power negation tricks were fairly common in Image's stuff (or at least those under the Wildstorm imprint) as well, which makes sense given that most (all?) of Image's early creators were ex-Marvel. Plus since I jumped in by the early 90s, only the incompetent thugs failed to pick up S.O.P. to deal with supers.

I'd also look into what kind of ethical concerns the setting has over power usage. Even if the team are anti-heroes or anti-villains or regular villains, constantly deceiving people with illusions or constantly invading people's minds will get you a reputation that might let you get things done, but scares away a lot of help. The best fictional example of this doesn't even have any powers: the Joker's name can get stuff done but I get a feel only the foolish or the desperate sign on with him.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Define "rendered useless"

As I said in another thread:

In superhero fiction, Professor X is probably the clearest example of the problem I'm worried about. Except that in fiction, there are plot contrivances to get around this that don't work well in an RPG. In X-Men, every story (at least, every story where the writer thought it through) involves either (1) an enemy who's flat-out immune to Professor X's power (Magneto, Sentinels) or (2) Professor X being taken out of commission somehow. For example, there was an Ultimate X-Men arc where he was captured early in the story and put in a power dampening cell, and in the first three movies we have (1) put into a coma by Mystique's sabotage, (2) captured and mind-controlled as part of the villain's plot, and (3) killed by Phoenix. Neither of these solutions are likely to make players in an RPG happy, if used every adventure.

If considered that if I were building a superhero setting, I might have to make Magneto-style anti-mind control helmets standard issue gear for heroes in that setting. So mind control is terrifying against the normals, but in fights between superheroes it stops being an instant win button.