[GURPS Template Toolkit 1: Characters] Disadvantage Limits

[Captain Joy]

I have been operating under the assumption that disadvantages in required templates do not count against the campaign disadvantage limit; disadvantages in optional templates do count against the campaign disadvantage limit. However, GURPS Template Toolkit 1: Characters is giving me the impression that disadvantages in templates do count against the campaign disadvantage limit (with the exception of Racial Templates which are specifically exempted in Basic and not covered in GURPS Template Toolkit 1: Characters).

I know the important thing is that my game works the way I want it to, but I'd like to be consistent with official GURPS convention.

[Nosforontu]

Overall the distinction seems to be in Racial templates Disads do not count towards campaign limits. Proffessional Templates though show you the common disadvantages associated with that character role and do count toward campaign limit barring GM decision to the contrary.

[Captain Joy]

Originally Posted by Nosforontu

Overall the distinction seems to be in Racial templates Disads do not count towards campaign limits. Proffessional Templates though show you the common disadvantages associated with that character role and do count toward campaign limit barring GM decision to the contrary.

I think my confusion comes from B11 where it says "…if the GM rules that at all PCs must have certain disadvantages … these "campaign disadvantages" should not count against the disadvantage limit". So, if I require a Professional Template in my campaign that includes disadvantages (e.g. Duty), should these disadvantages count against a campaign limit?

Again, I know it's possible to work things out either way. I'm wondering what the official GURPS stance is.

[Nosforontu]

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

I think my confusion comes from B11 where it says "…if the GM rules that at all PCs must have certain disadvantages … these "campaign disadvantages" should not count against the disadvantage limit". So, if I require a Professional Template in my campaign that includes disadvantages (e.g. Duty), should these disadvantages count against a campaign limit?

Again, I know it's possible to work things out either way. I'm wondering what the official GURPS stance is.

Typicaly I would say those points count toward the campaign limit for disadvantages, unless the gm actively decides differently which is also fully supported by the rules. Its my understanding of the rules that for example in a Monster Hunter Campaign that a PC should not expect to start with more disadvanatages than what is granted by race (which does not count against campaign limits), Motivational Lens, Proffessional template and 5 points in quirks.

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

I think my confusion comes from B11 where it says "…if the GM rules that at all PCs must have certain disadvantages … these "campaign disadvantages" should not count against the disadvantage limit". So, if I require a Professional Template in my campaign that includes disadvantages (e.g. Duty), should these disadvantages count against a campaign limit?

Again, I know it's possible to work things out either way. I'm wondering what the official GURPS stance is.

I think you're mistaking "the GM requires you pick an occupational template", which will likely have a "select -XX points from this disadvantage list", with "the GM has determined that all PCs will have these traits for free". The first is the "required templates" spoken of in the book under discussion.

For example, a GM may be running a Star Trek game. He requires, for niche protection, that characters be built from the templates he's cooked up for Command Staff (ala Kirk, Sulu), Science Division (Spock), Medical Division (Dr. McCoy, Nurse Chapel), Engineering Division (Scotty), Communications (Uhura), or Security (redshirts). The disadvantages chosen from these templates go towards the campaign disadvantage limit.

However, he may also say that because of some things going on (say, in the middle of the Federation-Romulan War), the PCs will all have "Duty (Starfleet)" and "Enemy (Romulan Empire) (9 or less)" on their sheets. These traits are applied after the characters are made and don't count towards the point value of the character, nor to any disadvantage limit.

Clear as mud?

[Stormcrow]

In general, if the player gets to choose the disadvantage, it counts against the disadvantage limit. If the GM enforces the disadvantage, it doesn't count.

If, for instance, the GM declared a -50-point disadvantage limit, and then assigned everyone -50 points in required disadvantages, what's the point of the limit? He might as well just say, "you can't have any disadvantages except those I give you."

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Captain Joy

I think my confusion comes from B11 where it says "…if the GM rules that at all PCs must have certain disadvantages … these "campaign disadvantages" should not count against the disadvantage limit". So, if I require a Professional Template in my campaign that includes disadvantages (e.g. Duty), should these disadvantages count against a campaign limit?

Again, I know it's possible to work things out either way. I'm wondering what the official GURPS stance is.

My reading of it is that if the GM requires you to take a specific Disadvantage, it shouldn't count - so if everyone has to take Duty (Extremely Hazardous, 9 or less), the points shouldn't count toward the limit. To the best of my knowledge, outside of Racial templates, no templates have required Disadvantages - for example, in DF it's outright stated that the Disadvantages are suggestions only, and a player can feel free to pick any other Disadvantage (subject to GM approval, of course). With that in mind, if you don't count Racial Disadvantages toward the limit, and you've built templates that have required Disadvantages in them (or a required choice from a set, like a mage needing to take one of Duty, Enemy, or Secret in a setting where mages are required to serve the military or are hunted down), I wouldn't consider such Disadvantages as applying toward the limit.

[Kromm]

Template Toolkit 1 uses "disadvantage limit" in the same way as p. B11: It applies to anything with a negative cost, excluding campaign disadvantages and racial disadvantages. When it warns you to respect disadvantage limits, it means "Don't offer non-campaign disadvantages that exceed the limit you've set." Obviously, if you've included campaign disadvantages, these are over and above disadvantages unique to individual templates or characters.