A WH40k Space Wolf in GURPS

[Kage2020]

Oh and...

Originally Posted by borithan

Based on the last codex: Devastator (heavy support), Assault and then Tactical. Personally I would have thought they would have followed the standard approach of being generalist first and then specialising, but not according to Ward.

Oh, they've changed this then. The progression that I posted above was originally argued to utilise the brash rage and overconfidence of the young Marine (hence Assault), then the more tempered eye of the veteran (hence Devastator), and finally the generalist (Tactical).

Ah well. That's 40k 'fluff' for you. My idiosyncratic interpretation of the 40k materials then had Marines either capping out because of innate talents ("You're always going to be an Assault Marine, lad") or preference ("I long for the days when I was an Assault Marine!").

Originally Posted by borithan

Some of the information is now dated...

That's never stopped the fans from using it! ;)

[DocRailgun]

Obviously using the Codexes for fluff is a way to madness, but I'll point out that the Wulfen aren't much of a curse anymore - almost every squad in the most recent SW Codex can take a brother with the Mark of the Wulfen as a unit upgrade.

[borithan]

Originally Posted by Onkl

From a canon point of view, as far as I know, you are correct. As soon as they get the last implant they will begin training in Power Armor, making them 18 years old.

My intention was to make the first session a split between being an Aspirant passing the tests - fast forward - last scout mission and initiation ritual - and it just seemed strange to me that an initiate would be so young, but I guess I will go the canon way.

If you feel it is a bit young then I certainly see no problem dealing with it differently (as long as your players are happy with it). It is one of the (many) odd bits of 40k fluff that are not immediately obvious from a general viewpoint.

What makes sense is that he would be 23 when he finally joined the chapter - cause then 5 years have passed for the gene-seed to grow. Also, the initiate would have proven himself for having survived as long as he did - thus worthy of being gene-seed harvested. Maybe the Codex Astartes says the gene-seed of scouts must not be harvested at all, who knows..

Possibly. As Kage said, the official lore on this is a bit vague. The placing of one seems to suggest it would be a bit... unkind to remove while the patient is living, but the first progeniod seems like it would be accessible without too much bother, so maybe they are harvested before death, or alternatively there could be many strict taboos on doing so (I personally think that the fact that they are such a precious item, representing the future of the Chapter and all, that it could be seen as disrespectful to remove them, treating them just like any old piece of biomechanical machinery). The general approach to this is of course "The 40k universe is so diverse and varied that all approaches are probably taken somewhere."

Also, it might be easier for the player to really grasp what his abilities are if he gets them one after another instead of all of them in one "fast-forward".

Well, I know one of the issues with the official "Deathwatch" RPG is that your characters start with so many random bonuses that you inevitably forget many of them ("Wait? I get a +10 to checks against dying. That would have helped last session"). Gradually building them up means the players get to know them individually before they get the next bunch. However, if you want to progress to full Deathwatch members within 2/3 sessions that isn't going to be possible. It would be a very different style of game.

If you were a player in this game, what would you like better?

Hmm... myself I have never been massively enthused with the idea of roleplaying Space Marines. However, if I felt I was a better roleplayer the idea of playing a scout, progressing through their training and development, is an interesting one. However, I think most people who want to play Space Marines will tend to think of them as presented in the Codices etc, ie 7 foot tall Angels of Death, striding the battlefield in their power armour.

On the approach to the lore: If your players have no idea of the lore, none of it matters, of course. Altering what you want with it will be fine. If they only have a cursory knowledge then it would also be fine, as the details of Space Marine training are unlikely to have come up before. However, if they have an in depth knowledge of the background it might be worth discussing what changes you have made with the players, to see what they think and so they are not operating under different expectations.

Originally Posted by Kage2020

Space Marines come in, on average, at around 7'6".

I thought the most recent "official" statement said between 7' and 7'6"

While this is not the 9' required of the Size Modifier Table it falls well within the range for Gigantism (SM+1). Since the pseudo-science of the ossmodula mentions delaying epiphyseal fusion, Gigantism and the SM+1 seems like the "best" way to go.

OK. As I said, it was something I was umming and ahhing about when creating my own write up.

For what it's worth I personally ended up giving them a DR of 10 to represent their skeletal "toughness" (not only crazy osteogenesis, but ceramics in the diet dontchaknow), but limited to crushing attacks, tough screen, and crushing,

It is about a year since I looked at it, but I think I had personally been much less generous, and granted them DR 4 or so, but then I didn't limit it to crushing.

with the Black Carapace throwing in another DR 7

Again, more generous than I had offered. I think it was another 4 or so

Then again, unlike PerfectOrganism's excellent work I took a more "lens-based" approach, which included individually statting out each of the organs and throwing them into the "basic lens," then adding additional lenses (Chapter, tactical, specialty). It gets a bit wonky in places, perhaps not quite surprising, when thinking about the synergy of the zygotes but overall I think it worked.

I had started working out the individual organs before I gave up, but I think I was moving towards certain groupings of organs, exactly because of the synergies of some of them. Also, the ones that tended to be dropped off certain Chapters seemed to be the ones that stood alone much more (the Betcher's gland and the Susan (sp?) Membrane being the immediate ones that come to mind).

(The only in-setting argument that seems to make sense is that along with the genetic material the progenoids also store the "hero factor!" ;))

Well, with the superstitious nature of much of the 40k setting, I could certainly believe the owners thinking so.

One minor point here is that the implantation ages are touted for safety. There are examples in the 40k materials of people being implanted after this, but it is noted as an act of desperation (Blood Ravens). Also, there's the Space Marines of the Great Crusade-era during which older individuals are initiated into Space Marines, but they're stated as being not-quite-right, or inferior (despite their actions in the novels, one might add).

Yes. I personally prefer the suggestion that because the process is better understood in the Great Crusade era they can be more flexible in its implementation. Of course, as you say, even in some of the Horus Heresy novels there are comments about them not being as good.

To throw another spanner in the works, or at least to increase the age range that you cite, the earlier background materials have Space Marines living for about 200-300 years. As the materials have developed power-creep over time, based around the mantra of "big is 'ard," this has tended to increase somewhat.

I can't remember any explicit statements in 1st edition 40k about ages, but the 400+ being old for a serving combat marine and 1000 years being the oldest current marine is a long standing element, as they were introduced in the 2nd edition codicies (Ultramarines and Blood Angels respectively).

... Basically you can do what you want.

So much of 40k lore is best approached in this way.

The Horus Heresy books have not particularly helped there. Proponents of the immortal Space Marine argument have also advanced that only the "first generation" Marines were immortal. Every generation after that has had their ages cut down as the zygotes ultimately dilute.

Make of that what you will.

My personal argument against that (and I have argued against it on Warseer), is simply that at the time no Space Marine was much over 200 years old. Difficult to make statements about mortality from that perspective, especially as the statements along those lines all come from those who didn't have the insider knowledge and are generally overawed by the marines (at least as far as I can remember).

Originally Posted by Kage2020

Oh, they've changed this then. The progression that I posted above was originally argued to utilise the brash rage and overconfidence of the young Marine (hence Assault), then the more tempered eye of the veteran (hence Devastator), and finally the generalist (Tactical).

Yes. The last Space Marine codex was designed with the idea of "reinforcing the iconic image of the Space Marine with his bolter", at least according to the designer. This apparently required insisting that the most veteran non-Veteran Space Marines were in tactical squads. Personally not so keen, as 1) I feel the progression should be from a generalist to a specialist, and 2) it also has the problem that apparently the most common type of soldier is actually one of the most experienced. I am fine with the idea that the bullet shields in the Devastator squads might be some of the least experienced, as frankly all they have to do is twiddle their thumbs most of the time, but the guys toting the guns that matter?

That's never stopped the fans from using it! ;)

They should reintroduce the Sensei... ;)

[Onkl]

I think the lack of english language skill has gotten the better of me once again. I never intended to suggest that the gene-seed gets harvested from living subjects. To me it was always clear that this only gets done from the dead...

Cheers

Onkl

[Kage2020]

Completely incidentally, I recently ran across a GURPS 4e interpretation of the 40k universe which might be generally useful for those GURPS'ers that have a hankering to get all 40k. I've lost the link to it, but I can email if you're interested and PM.

Originally Posted by borithan

Possibly. As Kage said, the official lore on this is a bit vague. The placing of one seems to suggest it would be a bit... unkind to remove while the patient is living, but the first progeniod seems like it would be accessible without too much bother, so maybe they are harvested before death, or alternatively there could be many strict taboos on doing so...

It's completely personal interpretation, but I try and balance both to create a rule to which I can then make exceptions (rather than the whole "it varies from Chapter to Chapter" approach). The progenoid in the neck is removed for the sake of expediency after it matures five years after implantation. Following that the progenoid in the chest is left for that "hero factor" so that options are left open to lineages of Marines, or the idea of the Marine being plain 'ard tinkering with the geneseed to make it pure or whatever. (It's a nice way of explaining the buff you get from dying in the Deathwatch RPG!)

Originally Posted by borithan

I thought the most recent "official" statement said between 7' and 7'6"

You might have me on recent. When it comes down to interpretation of the 40k universe I'll admit that I tend to go with the older materials (because that's what drew me to the 40k universe) and then introduce the newer materials either as necessary or because it's just too cool not to do so. Either way it still fits the pseudo-science and Gigantism.

Originally Posted by borithan

It is about a year since I looked at it, but I think I had personally been much less generous, and granted them DR 4 or so, but then I didn't limit it to crushing.

If it means anything, when I looked over my basic template I stared at those numbers and tried to remember why I made it so high. Torso DR was fine, but I now have a hazy recollection of looking through Biotech so perhaps the inspiration for that number came from there?

Originally Posted by borithan

Again, more generous than I had offered. I think it was another 4 or so

You're probably right. I just took the standard value for a TL 6 flak jacket from Characters and left it at that.

Originally Posted by borithan

I had started working out the individual organs before I gave up, but I think I was moving towards certain groupings of organs, exactly because of the synergies of some of them.

Hence, I presume, PerfectOrganism's mashing it all together--a very viable solution to the problem even if the nerd-rage/perfectionist in me wouldn't allow me to take a similar approach. (This is actually a thorn in my gaming side, since it's also dominating my Earthdawn/Shadowrun/Equinox project dang'nam'it!)

That and in the back of my mind I was thinking about the game where you went from aspirant to Battle Brother and it felt easier just to throw in an organ (or three) at a time, as it were. Same thing goes for Chapter-specific removal and/or mutation. Horses and courses and all that.

Originally Posted by borithan

I can't remember any explicit statements in 1st edition 40k about ages, but the 400+ being old for a serving combat marine and 1000 years being the oldest current marine is a long standing element, as they were introduced in the 2nd edition codicies (Ultramarines and Blood Angels respectively).

Well, to be honest I couldn't point you to a source. I've just had that figure lurking around in my head for a couple of decades so if my recollection is correct--and I'm not saying that it is--it comes from some of the earlier materials, or 1e as you say.

With that said, the approach that was thrown into my template took the middle ground between the lowest value and the highest (immortal)--Marines begin to suffer ageing at about 400, a process that accelerates at 560 and 720 years, and they tend not to get beyond 900 years. Again, though, this is the rule to which exceptions can be made.

(Like you, I'm not a fan of the immortal Marine argument even though I have to admit that it's a rather interesting fan suggestion!)

Originally Posted by borithan

Yes. The last Space Marine codex was designed with the idea of "reinforcing the iconic image of the Space Marine with his bolter", at least according to the designer.

Ah, fair enough. Thanks for the update!

The wonderful thing about treating the tactical specialty as a lens is that it doesn't really matter which order your bolt them together.

Originally Posted by borithan

They should reintroduce the Sensei... ;)

And, for those steeped in the "lore" of 40k, there's no reason to say that they ever went anywhere other than obscurity... along with the Illuminati. ;)

Edit: Apologies also, borithan. I placed the tactical lenses in the wrong order. You were correct when you mentioned the progress going from Scout --> Devastator --> Assault --> Tactical.

[borithan]

Originally Posted by Kage2020

If it means anything, when I looked over my basic template I stared at those numbers and tried to remember why I made it so high. Torso DR was fine, but I now have a hazy recollection of looking through Biotech so perhaps the inspiration for that number came from there?


You're probably right. I just took the standard value for a TL 6 flak jacket from Characters and left it at that.

I wasn't trying to say your interpretation was wrong, just different. As far as I can remember my rational for the ribcage protection was as simple as: Skull provides DR 2, so a full bone covering would provide a similar DR2. However it is improved bone, so lets double that to 4. The Black Carapace I just decided would be on roughly the same scale as wearing chainmail (and I didn't want to boost it too much in terms of extra protection on the chest when considered on top of their power armour). I also tended to consider the plastic as flexible, even after hardening (so not needing any articulation or anything), so it comes down to a different interpretation of what has been said on it. As you seemed to think of a much more rigid arrangement it makes sense to provide more protection.

Hence, I presume, PerfectOrganism's mashing it all together--a very viable solution to the problem even if the nerd-rage/perfectionist in me wouldn't allow me to take a similar approach. (This is actually a thorn in my gaming side, since it's also dominating my Earthdawn/Shadowrun/Equinox project dang'nam'it!)

I guess I sit in a middle ground here. I certainly didn't like the idea of just lumping it into better attributes, but after looking at it I just couldn't separate some of the items, so I was willing to merge those organs that seemed to work together in a way that couldn't be separated from others. Also, the fact they have never really dealt with the idea of those ones missing suggested to me that it wouldn't be much of an issue.

[Kage2020]

Originally Posted by borithan

I wasn't trying to say your interpretation was wrong, just different.

I didn't take it in a negative way, old chap. As noted previously I had squinted at the values, feeling somewhat uncomfortable with them in the long run and thereby reducing the values. I rather like just keeping it to a DR modification for the skull and rolling any perks of the rib-cage rolled into the black carapace DR.

Originally Posted by borithan

I guess I sit in a middle ground here. I certainly didn't like the idea of just lumping it into better attributes, but after looking at it I just couldn't separate some of the items, so I was willing to merge those organs that seemed to work together in a way that couldn't be separated from others.

It would be interesting to see how you arranged things if you fancied shooting me a quick PM. I always find it interesting to see how different organs are interpreted and frequently results in tweaking my own interpretation.

[Onkl]

A first draft for my new disadvantage:

Curse of the Wulfen

The unique properties of the Wolves' gene-seed gift their brothers with enhanced abilities beyond even those of other Space Marines, including hyper-acute senses of smell and hearing, elongated canines that can dent plasteel, and leathery, resilient skin[1a]. Unfortunately, these same properties risk turning the man who absorbs them into a feral beast, an aspect known as the Curse of the Wulfen among the Space Wolves.

You could temporarily “regress” when frightened, angered, fatigued, or injured. Whenever such a situation arise, roll vs. Will and consult the table below. If friends comfort you, roll at +2. If one of these people has Animal Empathy or Empathy, apply an additional +2.

Roll vs. Will

Failure by one: Treat like failed Bad Temper self-control roll
Failure by two: Treat like a failed Berserk self-control roll
Failure by three: Treat like a failed Bestial self-control roll
Failure by four: Treat like a failed Bad Temper and Berserk self-control roll
Failure by five: Treat like a failed Bad Temper, Berserk and Bestial self-control roll
Failure by six: Reduce Will by 1, treat like a failed Bad Temper, Berserk and Bestial self-control roll
...

Every minute after a failed Will roll, you may make make another one to try to snap out of it.

How would you price it?
Do you like what I did?
What would you do different?

Cheers

Onkl

[Kage2020]

Interesting, but I would be tempted to go another route. If I had to eyeball it, I would give them a mild case of Stress Atavism linked to Berserk. The Self Control modifier is up for grabs, so I would stick with default--so total of 15 points for the Curse of Wulfen.

After that I would take a gander at the Corruption mechanics from Horror so that, over time, you can emulate the growing influence of the geneseed defect. It would, on the face of things, also seem to cover the other manifestations of the Curse with the development of other disadvantages (IIRC).

[Onkl]

Originally Posted by Kage2020

Interesting, but I would be tempted to go another route. If I had to eyeball it, I would give them a mild case of Stress Atavism linked to Berserk. The Self Control modifier is up for grabs, so I would stick with default--so total of 15 points for the Curse of Wulfen.

After that I would take a gander at the Corruption mechanics from Horror so that, over time, you can emulate the growing influence of the geneseed defect. It would, on the face of things, also seem to cover the other manifestations of the Curse with the development of other disadvantages (IIRC).

Thank you very much for your suggestion. I have not gotten around to reading through Horror and was unaware of such a mechanism. Now that I've read up on it, it seems that this is spot on.

Also, one could use to simulate the corruption a Space Marine could receive from using chaos-tainted items.

Thanks a bunch Kage, once again you helped a lot.

I'll post a new version of the disadvantage asap.

Cheers

Onkl