Cosmetic Question

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by kelly_pedersen

Well, the description of Cosmetic says that "You can only change your outward appearance. Your abilities and racial template are unaffected." (Emphasis mine). I'd read that as saying that you can't change anything besides your appearance. And the first sentence certainly suggests the intent of the limition, IMO.

That might be right, I may be blurring the line between cosmetic and other limitations.

It does seem rather silly to have to pay 16 points for the ability to become beautiful, but not be able to reap any benefit from becoming horrific, I don't see any logic there.

Especially since with Elastic Skin you only have to make sure you have the skill to look beautiful, no additional cost involved.

Originally Posted by naloth

That does mean that having your knees bend backwards (like a Satyr) would be possible for a cosmetic morph but not someone with Elastic Skin. Likewise I'ld let a cosmetic morph imitate a winged guy, but unless he's purchase Flight separately he cannot fly.

So basically cosmetic morph as the rubber gumby type power, you can pull and ply any shape and or form from it, but you get no advantage from it?

I'd be fine with that type of limitation, except it doesn't sound like what's being defined as cosmetic in the RAW, since as soon as you put on wings and backward bending legs, you're no longer abiding by the racial template of the base creature, what then?

Besides, wings are functioning limbs, or are you creating wings which just hang there immobile like a stage costume?
Backward bending knees which keep you from walking?

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

I'd be fine with that type of limitation, except it doesn't sound like what's being defined as cosmetic in the RAW, since as soon as you put on wings and backward bending legs, you're no longer abiding by the racial template of the base creature, what then?

My understanding is that you're not adjusting anything on the character sheet. You're just adjusting "appearance" (which can mean points) and other zero point features.

Besides, wings are functioning limbs, or are you creating wings which just hang there immobile like a stage costume?
Backward bending knees which keep you from walking?

Like prop wings, though they can be injuried. Of course that's true of you make your ears really big.

Backwards knees is a cosmetic (no point cost) feature. I don't know if it's ever happened naturally, but they can put knee replacements on backwards.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by naloth

My understanding is that you're not adjusting anything on the character sheet. You're just adjusting "appearance" (which can mean points) and other zero point features.

Many zero point features are primary descriptors in racial templates.
A Naga could have a 0 point feature of no legs, slithers, but that doesn't make it a Cosmetic shift.

Originally Posted by naloth

Like prop wings, though they can be injuried. Of course that's true of you make your ears really big.

Hmm, that's really pushing beyond the realms of Cosmetic as written, especially if it means you can now glide or even if you could just blott out the sun, they are real and have some function.
I can't see how extra limbs could be Cosmetic, whether it be horns or wings, they're there, if they're there, you can use them, even if they're not as good as the real thing.

We should definitely have a limitation which allows us to have a character turn into whatever we want them to look like without necessarily having the abilities of their target; however, that limitation would have to be something other than the current Cosmetic limitation.

Originally Posted by naloth

Backwards knees is a cosmetic (no point cost) feature. I don't know if it's ever happened naturally, but they can put knee replacements on backwards.

I don't buy that, any racial feature is by definition part of a racial template, doesn't matter if it's a negative point feature, a 0 point feature, or an expensive feature.

Not to mention that since Double Jointed is an advantage, having the ability to have your joints bend in different ways would easily give you that advantage amongst others, that's not Cosmetic.

[vitruvian]

Many zero point features are primary descriptors in racial templates.
A Naga could have a 0 point feature of no legs, slithers, but that doesn't make it a Cosmetic shift.

No, 0 point features that change your abilities in terms of game mechanics (such as Aquatic) should be off-limits. I might let someone change their legs to a tail, but *not* be able to move about normally, as part of cosmetic.

I can't see how extra limbs could be Cosmetic, whether it be horns or wings, they're there, if they're there, you can use them, even if they're not as good as the real thing.

Horns aren't limbs, and forehead bumps that look like horns but aren't any harder than the rest of you and don't act as Strikers seem fine - it's nothing that can't be done as a Halloween costume with latex and glue, after all. Even wings or tails seem fine, as long as they're are pretty completely nonfunctional (you can twitch them but they don't really *do* anything).

Hmm, that's really pushing beyond the realms of Cosmetic as written, especially if it means you can now glide or even if you could just blott out the sun, they are real and have some function.

Well, since it's Cosmetic, you get neither gliding nor any advantage for having a sun parasol - those would be abilities.

We should definitely have a limitation which allows us to have a character turn into whatever we want them to look like without necessarily having the abilities of their target; however, that limitation would have to be something other than the current Cosmetic limitation.

No, that seems to be EXACTLY the intent of the Cosmetic limitation, if you read it. Just remember that looking like something does not necessarily mean having the same template as something.

I don't buy that, any racial feature is by definition part of a racial template, doesn't matter if it's a negative point feature, a 0 point feature, or an expensive feature.

Actualy, I wouldn't even call backwards knees a feature per se; it's just part of how fauns and satyrs look. Calling it a 0 point feature implies that it has game mechanical effects where the positive and negative elements balance out, as with Aquatic and similar traits. Things like funky-looking legs that let you walk the same terrain, pointy ears, different hair and skin colors, etc., that have no real game effects are merely part of a race's appearance. I've never seen a Feature listed in a satyr template for the legs, any more than I've seen one listed in an elf template for the points on the ears.

Not to mention that since Double Jointed is an advantage, having the ability to have your joints bend in different ways would easily give you that advantage amongst others, that's not Cosmetic.

I don't think being able to turn into a satyr in 10 seconds, and therefore having your legs bend the other way, would give you the actual game benefits of Double Jointed. Even if it was of some help in getting out of restraints, that's no worse than the fact that being able to mimic different humans with different builds means you can turn to a skinnier form and make them loose on you... which you can surely do if you don't have Glamour in addition to Cosmetic, since it's a real change in shape, and you aren't restricted to your own waist measurement, etc.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

No, 0 point features that change your abilities in terms of game mechanics (such as Aquatic) should be off-limits. I might let someone change their legs to a tail, but *not* be able to move about normally, as part of cosmetic.

I see no difference between a fish tail and a faun/satyr with two hooved foot long toes, elongated shin long ankles and stunted femurs.
If you can't swim with a cosmetic tail, then how can you justify running around on two hooved toes?
http://www.stat.tamu.edu/~hart/satyr.jpg

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Horns aren't limbs, and forehead bumps that look like horns but aren't any harder than the rest of you and don't act as Strikers seem fine - it's nothing that can't be done as a Halloween costume with latex and glue, after all.

Horns are simply highly compact keratin. (Same as hair and nails).]
If you can grow entire wings, functional horns and claws are much easier.

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Even wings or tails seem fine, as long as they're are pretty completely nonfunctional (you can twitch them but they don't really *do* anything).

If you can grow them, they can be used somehow, I'm confident in most players' ability to exploit any holes like that.

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Well, since it's Cosmetic, you get neither gliding nor any advantage for having a sun parasol - those would be abilities.

Makes it a bit hard to explain away why function doesn't follow form.

Originally Posted by vitruvian

No, that seems to be EXACTLY the intent of the Cosmetic limitation, if you read it. Just remember that looking like something does not necessarily mean having the same template as something.

Many 0 point racial features are just that, they look like something else.

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Actualy, I wouldn't even call backwards knees a feature per se; it's just part of how fauns and satyrs look. Calling it a 0 point feature implies that it has game mechanical effects where the positive and negative elements balance out, as with Aquatic and similar traits.

Hooves cost points.
Hopping around on your toes is also something not even ballerinas can do all day, so you are getting an ability from the morph.

Originally Posted by vitruvian

I don't think being able to turn into a satyr in 10 seconds, and therefore having your legs bend the other way, would give you the actual game benefits of Double Jointed.

But it you can turn your legs into satyr legs, then why wouldn't you be able to turn them into snake legs? And if you can do your legs, then why wouldn't you be able to do the rest of your body?

This type of morph just seems to me to go beyond Cosmetic.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

If you can grow them, they can be used somehow, I'm confident in most players' ability to exploit any holes like that.

I don't see why that's a problem in GURPS. The player asks for Morph. He has a choice: if he doesn't take Cosmetic, he pays more points but can assume true racial templates. If he does take Cosmetic, he can merely look as if he has assumed the racial template. So when he takes Cosmetic, he's agreed that it's up to him to come up with changes that don't actually confer abilities. Either he describes wings that can't be used for Flight or as Strikers, or he insists that wings have to have those capabilities, and then you say, "Fine. You took Cosmetic. You're not capable of assuming that shape."

[Not another shrubbery]

A lot of the confusion over what can or cannot be done with Cosmetic would be solved if people followed Kromm's guidelines from that earlier thread 0:)

More seriously... I wonder if concerns over the valuation of Cosmetic would be assuaged if it were allowed to change appearance (as part of the 50 pt package, I mean)?

[vitruvian]

Many 0 point racial features are just that, they look like something else.

Unless it's listed in the racial template as a Feature, it doesn't count as 'changing your racial template'.

This type of morph just seems to me to go beyond Cosmetic.

What *would* be covered by Cosmetic, then? Can a fat person with Cosmetic Morph look like a skinnier person? A short person like a taller one? Are pointed elf ears okay, but horns are not?

-50% is a big limitation. It's simpler to read it as written, and allow any cosmetic change in appearance, as long as it has no game mechanical effect. If the change in appearance involves things like horns, tails, etc., it's up to the player to explain how such appendages look like the real thing but give no real advantage.

Hooves cost points.

As Strikers. If your cosmetic satyr hooves let you run around, but you can't kick any harder with them than with your normal feet, I don't see an advantage.

Hopping around on your toes is also something not even ballerinas can do all day, so you are getting an ability from the morph.

What's the game mechanical advantage, however?

Unless your fake hooves provide Striker or Terrain Adaptation or something of the kind, it's not an issue. Your legs and feet look different, but your Move stays the same.

If you can grow them, they can be used somehow, I'm confident in most players' ability to exploit any holes like that.

As the previous poster said, if a player tries to have their Cosmetic Morph abuse the advantage in this way, remind them they took a -50% limitation. Either come up with some explanation why the change in shape confers no advantage other than appearance and disguise, or forgo being able to morph into that shape.

If it's *really* awkward to explain how a particular shape would work (like how do you run around as a dog without Four Legs), maybe even specify some kind of penalty (e.g., can only move at a crawl while mimicking the dog). But under no circumstances let somebody who agreed to forgo gaining abilities and templates through Morph gain any functional advantages through it.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

A lot of the confusion over what can or cannot be done with Cosmetic would be solved if people followed Kromm's guidelines from that earlier thread 0:)

Which I interpreted as RAW Cosmetic morph does not allow one to grow parts or look like anything outside of the realm of human possibilities.

From http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=5348 post #2:

Originally Posted by Kromm

Those aren't cosmetic changes. The Cosmetic limitation specifically constrains your racial template. Your racial template doesn't just include racial advantages, disadvantages, etc. -- it includes whatever limits on weight, height, coloration, body parts, etc. are normal for your race. A human with the Cosmetic limitation can't become an ant or a giant. He's limited to looking like a human . . . just a different human. That's why Cosmetic is such a big discount. Alternate Form (Cosmetic, -50%) [8] basically gives you a single, perfect disguise. Morph (Cosmetic, -50%) [50] gives you an infinite number of perfect disguises, and is a better deal if you plan to look like more than six different people in your career.

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

More seriously... I wonder if concerns over the valuation of Cosmetic would be assuaged if it were allowed to change appearance (as part of the 50 pt package, I mean)?

That would work for me, value wise.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Ze'Manel Cunha

Which I interpreted as RAW Cosmetic morph does not allow one to grow parts or look like anything outside of the realm of human possibilities.

Yeah, there doesn't seem to be much wiggle room in interpreting K's post there. Ellie's take on Cosmetic, in that same thread, is less strict, and seems to be more like what v is advocating.

That would work for me, value wise.

I prefer that idea, also... but Kromm's post, combined with the pertinent text from Morph, seem to rule it out as officially legal.

A small detail which may not stop a loose cannon (loose canon?).