Cosmetic Question

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Gurps Fan

Powers states (p.111) Cosmetic Shapeshifting can have the Glamour limitation. Powers also says Cosmetic Shapeshifting with Glamour can be enhanced with Selective Effect, to represent a "What man? You're talking
to a dog!"-like situation (p.105).

Therefore, Cosmetic Shapeshifting must permit turning into a member of
different races, like human into dog.

The section on p105 doesn't mention Cosmetic, just Shapeshifting... leading me to wonder if it was meant to apply to the base form of the ad rather than the limited one.

Glamour is kind of a cool idea, but the concept seems to draw on the (IMO, misguided) classification of shapeshifting in Hero 5E as a type of illusion. I believe that it (Glamour) more properly belongs as a variant of, or modifier to, Illusion.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Hobbes

You make a good case, but not 30 points worth IMO. The factors you mention in no way justify paying more than twice the price for the benefit they provide.

I would point out that Cosmic:No die roll required is +100% by itself. Whether Cosmetic Shapeshifting, as a hypothetical enhanced version of ES, deserves the full measure of that modifier; or whether the modifier itself is fairly valued; might be grounds for contention. If we accept that it should apply in entirety, that would mean that the other advantages of Cosmetic, over ES, would only (heh) need to account for another +50% to make the former worth the given cost of 50.

Of course, there is also the possibility that Elastic Skin is overpriced.

[vitruvian]

I prefer to read the limitation as written. Cosmetic restricts you from having actual changes to your abilities or racial template, but does not otherwise restrict how your appearance can change. Remember that a racial template is not the same thing as racial appearance.

The only restriction on racial appearance I would accept as coming automatically with Cosmetic is that you can't change your overall body shape or mode of locomotion in any *effective* way. You can look like a four-legged creature, but not move around at full speed on all fours, because that requires the Four Legs advantage.

The one question that remains, though, is what about Appearance? If you are normally Ugly, and do a Cosmetic Morph to look just like someone of Very Handsome/Beautiful Appearance, which reaction modifiers do you get (assuming a successful mimic job)? Do you need a separate 'Morph pool' of points even for Cosmetic Morph, to pay for changes to Appearance?

[Hobbes]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I think elves are within the range of things achievable with Morph (Cosmetic). That is, as far as outward form goes. Basically, Cosmetic lets you do anything you could do as a "man in a rubber suit" with an unlimited budget for costume, makeup, and maybe light prosthetics. So you could be an elf, a Star Trek alien, or a classic Hollywood wolfman. But for anything that would require an animal, or a mechanical model, or computer animation, forget about it.

On the other hand, you could, for example, have cosmetic angel wings that just didn't let you fly because the aerodynamics was wrong.

That's exactly how I read it.

Assuming for a moment that the trait does function this way, that leads back to my initial question. The description you've given describes how the ability would function from "human" to "humanoid with funny bumps." What happens when you try to reverse the process. If you're playing a Hollywood wolfman with angel wings, can you use Morph (Cosmetic) to turn into a normal human? If so, do the wings disappear? Does your Flight (Winged) ability cease to function, or function in the absence of visible wings? Does your punch damage still benefit from wolf claws or not? etc.

[vitruvian]

What happens when you try to reverse the process. If you're playing a Hollywood wolfman with angel wings, can you use Morph (Cosmetic) to turn into a normal human? If so, do the wings disappear? Does your Flight (Winged) ability cease to function, or function in the absence of visible wings? Does your punch damage still benefit from wolf claws or not? etc.

You know, I don't really have a problem with letting Morph, even Cosmetic Morph, sometimes make the character *weaker* while changed. So you could lose the use of your wings, or your claws, or your horns, while morphed into a shape that doesn't have them. If you go four-legged, you're reduced to a Move appropriate to a two-legged creature crawling on all fours, unless you get up on 'hind legs' and look really funky running... and so on. This also lets you mimic a one-armed man. Changes to your shape can always end up hampering you... you just can't *gain* any abilities due to your morphing abilities.

And you shouldn't get any points back from this, unless *all* of the forms you can change into lack the wings, or the claws, or whatever, in which case it can be a case of Alternate Abilities or Temporary Disadvantage (Negated Advantage) on one or the other ability.

[Ze'Manel Cunha]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

And you shouldn't get any points back from this, unless *all* of the forms you can change into lack the wings, or the claws, or whatever, in which case it can be a case of Alternate Abilities or Temporary Disadvantage (Negated Advantage) on one or the other ability.

Well, on that point, if your base template is more points than your target template, you can always upgrade the target template.

[vitruvian]

Well, on that point, if your base template is more points than your target template, you can always upgrade the target template.

Except of course you aren't dealing with templates at all if your Morph is Cosmetic.

Any thoughts on the question of whether you have to pay for Appearance granted by Cosmetic Morph?

[Gurps Fan]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

The section on p105 doesn't mention Cosmetic, just Shapeshifting... leading me to wonder if it was meant to apply to the base form of the ad rather than the limited one.

Yes, but the description on p.111 sounds to me like Glamour requires
Cosmetic as the prerequisite, when applied to Shapeshifting.

If it's assumed that Glamour can apply to non-Cosmetic Shapeshifting, it will
lead to ridiculous situations. For example, if I can buy Alternate Form (Bird)
with Glamour and without Cosmetic, I really am -- as opposed to "being seen
as" -- a bird for some people that fails in the resistance roll, while I'm still a
human for other people that succeeds. I fly in front of fools, and drop dead in
front of wise people?

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Gurps Fan

Yes, but the description on p.111 sounds to me like Glamour requires Cosmetic as the prerequisite, when applied to Shapeshifting.

Yeah.. I was just pointing out the discrepancy between the two references.

If it's assumed that Glamour can apply to non-Cosmetic Shapeshifting, it will lead to ridiculous situations. For example, if I can buy Alternate Form (Bird)with Glamour and without Cosmetic, I really am -- as opposed to "being seen as" -- a bird for some people that fails in the resistance roll, while I'm still a human for other people that succeeds. I fly in front of fools, and drop dead in front of wise people?

You're right.. that does seem to cement the idea that, as written, it should only apply to Cosmetic. I tend to see it as more reason to move Glam over to Illusion, where it seems to fit better.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

You're right.. that does seem to cement the idea that, as written, it should only apply to Cosmetic. I tend to see it as more reason to move Glam over to Illusion, where it seems to fit better.

Glamour's not a Shapeshifting-specific limitation, though. It's one of the new general limitations that Powers introduces, useful for turning any advantage that affects how others percieve you into one that gives onlookers a Will roll to see through it. No need to "move" it too Illusion - it can already be applied just fine.