[Powers] Detect (Lies) Ability

[Brandy]

Originally Posted by Molokh

But Empathy works with an unresisted roll, and can detect lies among other things.

I don't agree with that interpretation. If it were the case, what would be the point of giving a bonus to the detect lies skill?

How I interpret it is:
Ordinary Joe: Default for Detecting Lies is Per-6, opposed by the target's IQ, acting or fast-talk. May improve this by purchasing the the Detect Lies Skill.

Low-Level Empathy Joe: Default for Detecting Lies is IQ-3, opposed by the target's IQ, acting or fast-talk. May improve this by purchasing the the Detect Lies Skill, with which he gets a +1.

Full Empathy Joe: Default for Detecting Lies is IQ, opposed by the target's IQ, acting or fast-talk. May improve this by purchasing the the Detect Lies Skill, with which he gets a +3.

It's fine with me if you're working with a different interpretation and want to consider mine a House Rule. In any case, this isn't the solution that I'm leaning towards for this ability, but I do genuinely appreciate the input. :)

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Bookman

I don't agree with that interpretation. If it were the case, what would be the point of giving a bonus to the detect lies skill?

How I interpret it is:
Ordinary Joe: Default for Detecting Lies is Per-6, opposed by the target's IQ, acting or fast-talk. May improve this by purchasing the the Detect Lies Skill.

Low-Level Empathy Joe: Default for Detecting Lies is IQ-3, opposed by the target's IQ, acting or fast-talk. May improve this by purchasing the the Detect Lies Skill, with which he gets a +1.

Full Empathy Joe: Default for Detecting Lies is IQ, opposed by the target's IQ, acting or fast-talk. May improve this by purchasing the the Detect Lies Skill, with which he gets a +3.

It's fine with me if you're working with a different interpretation and want to consider mine a House Rule. In any case, this isn't the solution that I'm leaning towards for this ability, but I do genuinely appreciate the input. :)

Judging by the note that

Originally Posted by B51

You can also use it to determine
whether someone is lying . . . not what
the truth is, but just whether they are
being truthful with you.

it seems that Empathy is quite separate from Detect Lies. So that seems to indicate that a full-empathy person can either roll IQ to sense lies, or use Detect Lies at +3 (which might be above IQ, and can be used in situations where Empathy doesn't apply). I'm kind of leery of Empathy for this reason, but it's a very expensive Advantage that is very hard to use otherwise.

BTW, Detect Lies defaults to Per-6, so it's unlikely to have it at IQ after a +3 bonus (unless Per-IQ==+3, of course).

[Der Wanderer]

Special Rapport (Lying only, - 40%; Visible*, -10%; One Way, +20%; Affects Others, +50%; Area Effect IV, +200%; Transferable (All Living), +150%) [41 CPs]
*As Aura

Everybody who is within 16 meters of you can see the aura (and knows if the victim is lying).

That should do it, is by the book (though you would need GM approval for the use of Affects Others).

[Brandy]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Judging by the note that it seems that Empathy is quite separate from Detect Lies.

I agree that the text as written can be interpreted that way, but I don't think it is reasonable. It gives an unreasonable amount of benefit for the cost of the trait, so I don't think replacing the mechanics of detecting lies with an unopposed roll is truly what is intended.

Consider two characters with IQ 10 and Per 10:

C1: Detect Lies 11- (Per+1) [8]
C2: Empathy [5], Detect Lies 11- (Per+0, +1 For Empathy)[4]

The second character costs only 1 additional point and has somehow transformed the detecting of lies from a quick contest to a straight roll. I don't see how that can be the intent -- it is certainly more valuable than a simple perk! Hence, my interpretation.

BTW, Detect Lies defaults to Per-6, so it's unlikely to have it at IQ after a +3 bonus (unless Per-IQ==+3, of course).

You misunderstand. I'm saying that a character with Empathy can substitute an Empathy roll for the Detect Lies skill if it gives a better roll.

[Brandy]

I feel pretty good about this version of the Detect Lies Ability:

Light of Truth: Affliction 1 (Disadvantage: Divine Curse (Subject glows when telling lies), +25%; Malediction, +100%; Touch-Based, -20%; Divine, -10%; Costs 2 FP, -10%; Requires Concentration, -15%) [10]

Here are some other powers for these guys:

Subduing Blows: Affliction 1 (Easy to Subdue -5, +20%; Secondary Unconsciousness, +40%, Divine, -10%; Touch-Based, -20%; Link (weapon), +10%) [12]

Bands of Justinian: Binding 16 (Unbreakable, +40%; One-Shot, -10%; Divine, -10%; Costs 2 FP, -10%; Takes Extra Time 2, -20%) [22]

Iron Will: Resistant, Influence Skills (Divine, -10%). [5/8/14] (+3/+8/Indomitable)

Intrepid Heart: Resistant, Fear (Divine, -10%). [5/8/14] (+3/+8/Unfazeable)

Upright Mind: Mind Shield (Divine, -10%) [4/8/11/15/18] (+1/+2/+3/+4/+5)

[transmetahuman]

Originally Posted by Bookman

I feel pretty good about this version of the Detect Lies Ability:

Light of Truth: Affliction 1 (Disadvantage: Divine Curse (Subject glows when telling lies), +25%; Malediction, +100%; Touch-Based, -20%; Divine, -10%; Costs 2 FP, -10%; Requires Concentration, -15%) [10]

Here are some other powers for these guys:

Subduing Blows: Affliction 1 (Easy to Subdue -5, +20%; Secondary Unconsciousness, +40%, Divine, -10%; Touch-Based, -20%; Link (weapon), +10%) [12]

Bands of Justinian: Binding 16 (Unbreakable, +40%; One-Shot, -10%; Divine, -10%; Costs 2 FP, -10%; Takes Extra Time 2, -20%) [22]

Iron Will: Resistant, Influence Skills (Divine, -10%). [5/8/14] (+3/+8/Indomitable)

Intrepid Heart: Resistant, Fear (Divine, -10%). [5/8/14] (+3/+8/Unfazeable)

Upright Mind: Mind Shield (Divine, -10%) [4/8/11/15/18] (+1/+2/+3/+4/+5)

The Divine Curse pricing works for me, if intent-to-deceive is the basis of the ability (I thought you wanted to allow for more sneaky stuff). I just have some nitpicks on the rest of the build:

Touch-Based (presumably reversed) on those Afflictions means the user must touch the subject or the subject's armor, clothes, etc. with his bared hand - in which case you'd want Melee Attack as well. If you want the ability to only work if the user touches the subject's bare flesh, use Melee Attack + Contact Agent. If it's just a touch-range effect, usable through the user's gloves and the subject's armor, use Melee Attack alone. I can't think of any time you'd want to use Touch-Based alone on an advantage that starts out ranged.

Also, Requires Concentrate (Powers p. 112) is "normally" only for switchable or passive abilities, not transient attacks. I might let it work on an instant effect with Takes Extra Time, but it's not really enough harder to interrupt a one turn Concentrate maneuver than it is a one turn Attack maneuver (either need you to Wait) to justify the price break.

[Brandy]

Originally Posted by transmetahuman

Touch-Based (presumably reversed) on those Afflictions means the user must touch the subject or the subject's armor, clothes, etc. with his bared hand - in which case you'd want Melee Attack as well. If you want the ability to only work if the user touches the subject's bare flesh, use Melee Attack + Contact Agent. If it's just a touch-range effect, usable through the user's gloves and the subject's armor, use Melee Attack alone. I can't think of any time you'd want to use Touch-Based alone on an advantage that starts out ranged.

I had meant that as simply that it is a power with reach C.

Also, Requires Concentrate (Powers p. 112) is "normally" only for switchable or passive abilities, not transient attacks. I might let it work on an instant effect with Takes Extra Time, but it's not really enough harder to interrupt a one turn Concentrate maneuver than it is a one turn Attack maneuver (either need you to Wait) to justify the price break.

Actually, here I intend for the power to require concentration throughout the duration of the effect, so I think it is okay.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Bookman

The Detect trait works for this I suppose, but the special effect is a little odd. I'm also not sure what frequency of occurence to give to an abstract quantity like "lies".

The TV show "Lie To Me" appears, based on the first episode at least (I've recorded the 2nd but haven't watched it yet), to be filled with statistics factoids along the lines of "the average person tells 3 lies per 10 minutes".

Maybe some such kind of pop psychology factoid could be used as a guideline, even if it is almost certainly not scientifically valid?