One-Handed Reach 1, 2* Spear

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Beriogelir

As long as I've got you, how long is the spear that you use? Would it be a Spear or a Long Spear in GURPS terms? I think that viking martial arts would be just about what I am imagining here.

Most Viking spears I'm aware of are at the breakpoint between Spear and Long Spear in GURPS terms, i.e. they are about 2-2.5 metres (6'6" to 8'2").

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Beriogelir

So, to clarify, when wielded with one hand, do you make the Spear Reach 1, 2*, Parry 0U, or is it Reach 1, 2*, Parry 0 with a note stating that it is an Unbalanced weapon only when used at Reach 2?

The latter.

Originally Posted by Beriogelir

I agree completely with the comparison with Longswords. If a Longsword with a 40" blade is Reach 1, 2, then I don't see any reason why an 8' spear held such that 40" of the haft and the spearhead extend beyond your hand wouldn't also be Reach 1, 2.

Plenty of real Longswords have blades between 33-39", so I find it somewhat difficult to imagine how a swordsman could a significant Reach advantage over a shield-and-spear fighter with a typical Viking spear.

One of the few actual armed fighting styles I've personally tried (a few times, for fun) and while I've never fought anyone with a sword in two hands, I can attest that the fighter with the spear and shield has a longer reach than anyone with a two-handed axe, also listed as Reach 1,2 in GURPS.

Originally Posted by Beriogelir

I was just hoping to find a RAW solution so as to avoid any of my rules-lawyer players getting upset. I don't want to risk miming a spear-and-shield fighter with a trashcan lid and a shower curtain rod or something in order to get my point across.

It's RAW as soon as you make a Technique, using the GURPS Martial Arts technique design system, allowing the one-handed use of a Spear at Reach 2, at the cost of making it Unbalanced for that turn. Requiring either an empty hand or a shield ought to be good for a drawback, giving up the Parry with the weapon for that turn is another and I'd allow it at Spear+0, at least if the weapon being used is suitably long, not a Short Spear or something.

[evileeyore]

I'd just go with Doug's Sliding Spear Attack Technique/Perk, it would grant Reach 2 but sacrifice Parries for the Turn.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

I'd just go with Doug's Sliding Spear Attack Technique/Perk, it would grant Reach 2 but sacrifice Parries for the Turn.

What Doug describes would allow an attack at something 5'-7' away from you, which is more like a Great Lunge and could conceivably have Reach 3. Note that he described having the Spear be Unready, not just Unbalanced.

I'm talking about just sliding the spear enough to equal the Reach of a Longsword with 33" to 40" blade, i.e. Reach 2.

[Beriogelir]

I'm thinking that, barring someone discovering some Medium Spear in a Pyramid article that I missed or something, I'm going to create a technique that looks something like this:

Extended Spear Thrust
Hard
Defaults: Spear.
Prerequisite: Spear; cannot exceed prerequisite skill.

You can attack at Reach 2 with a Reach 1* spear wielded with one hand. You cannot use the spear to parry on the same turn that you use an Extended Spear Thrust, and you cannot use an Extended Spear Thrust on the same turn that you used the spear to parry. In addition, any items carried in your off-hand other than a shield (but not a buckler) become unready when you use an Extended Spear Thrust.

I'm also thinking that the technique will be more-or-less "invisible" - since it defaults to Spear, and cannot exceed Spear, you can't actually buy it, but its existence should silence the rules lawyers among my PCs. Thoughts?

I do really like the name "Doug's Sliding Spear Attack," though.

[Beriogelir]

Originally Posted by Fanny

What about using a 2-handed spear one-handed if you have adequate ST?

The issue there, as far as I can tell, is that it would mean that you would need ST 14 to wield a Spear at Reach 1, 2* one-handed, and even then it would become unready after you attacked with it. You would need ST 18 to wield it one-handed with no penalty.

And the Long Spear would still be Reach 2, 3*, in addition to the prohibitive ST requirements, so it wouldn't really work.

I guess you could take the Huge Weapons (ST) perk from Power-Ups 2, p. 6, but a ST 10 character would have to take the perk 8 times in order to wield a Spear without it becoming unready, which seems prohibitively expensive. I don't want to require characters to have enormous ST or crazy levels of training in order to reliably hit someone 3.5' away with a spear.

[Polydamas]

This is a classic problem which is easy to house-rule. Giving a 7' tapered spear the same reach as a 4' rapier is probably fair ... reduce its range or accuracy as a thrown weapon if you want (the balance towards the butt is not great for throwing).

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

When I fight with a one-handed spear in my viking martial arts class, shield in the other hand, I use a sliding technique to reach out. I thrust with the spear, and let it slide in my hand until it reaches the bottom of the haft. I then have to yank and recover it back (Ready maneuver).

The sliding thing with the hand takes practice but is fairly strong. I'd be tempted to model it as a Committed Attack that is Determined and uses the "attack and fly out" option, but with a 1-point perk that lets you basically attack at full skill to Reach 2, *without* moving your feet and actually attacking and flying out in time-of-the-body.

The penalties to defense (can't parry with the spear) make complete sense in this case, and the fact that you actually are back to Reach 1 at the end of your turn without a ready is a bit cinematic, but it's awesome. In my experience, the sliding attack takes a turn, and then you recover the weapon on the next.

That'd be another way to go, which is just allow anyone with training in spear to do it, but the attack causes the weapon to become Unready. A technique at Spear-1 might do it (I think it's easier than Armed Grapple, which is at -2) and still be able to be bought off with a 1-point perk, which feels right.

Are not all those tricks to get a little bit more reach out of a weapon, like a one-handed cut with the tip of a longsword held by the pommel, AoA (Long)? Those tricks are good to learn, and to learn to defend against, but dangerous to use as a staple.

[Beriogelir]

Originally Posted by Fanny

What if you treat 14 and 18 as the ST requirements so that anybody with lower ST could still do this but suffer skill penalties?

If Bardolph the Mook has ST 12 and Spear-13, and wanted to wield the Spear one-handed at Reach 1, 2* without it becoming unready, he would suffer a -6 penalty to his Spear skill and lose an extra FP at the end of the combat. He would effectively have Spear-7. I mean, it technically works, but it renders him completely ineffective.

It's made worse by the fact that Bardolph the Mook could wield a Long Spear at Reach 2, 3* one-handed with no problem (other than the fact that it becomes unbalanced). It doesn't make logical sense that it would take enormous strength or masterful skill to fight someone 3' away with a 7' spear one-handed, but any old schmuck could fight someone 3' away with a longsword with a 40" blade or a 12' spear wielded one-handed.

Let's say you have the Crimson Serpent, a renowned and feared combatant. He has ST 12, Spear-19. He's got Combat Reflexes, Enhanced Parry 3 (Spear), Weapon Master (Spear). He prefers to rely on speed and maneuverability in battle, so he wears only light leather armor, and wields an ordinary, 7' long Spear and a Small Buckler.

The Crimson Serpent is attacked by Bardolph the Mook. Bardolph has ST 12, Broadsword-13, and is wielding a Longsword and carrying a Medium Shield. The Crimson Serpent grabs his Spear, and prepares to fight . . . but Bardolph is standing 40" away, and the Crimson Serpent doesn't want to step into Bardolph's Stop Thrust.

Curses! The notorious Crimson Serpent is foiled! He can use an All-Out Attack (Long), but that leaves him open to counterattack - and that Stop Thrust. In order to strike against Bardolph from this distance without making his spear unready next turn, the Crimson Serpent will be at Spear-13. Poof - 24 points in Spear rendered worthless. Sure, he's got 40" of haft and spearhead to work with, but Bardolph has the ultimate equalizer - a longsword.

This scenario just doesn't feel right to me.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Are not all those tricks to get a little bit more reach out of a weapon, like a one-handed cut with the tip of a longsword held by the pommel, AoA (Long)? Those tricks are good to learn, and to learn to defend against, but dangerous to use as a staple.

Fair enough, but as the Longsword with a 33-40" blade can All-Out Attack (Long) at Reach 3, it feels very wrong for a 6-7' Viking spear held in one hand to only be able to extend out to Reach 2 with All-Out Attack (Long).

[Beriogelir]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

This is a classic problem which is easy to house-rule. Giving a 7' tapered spear the same reach as a 4' rapier is probably fair ... reduce its range or accuracy as a thrown weapon if you want (the balance towards the butt is not great for throwing).

I'm afraid that if I just create a house rule, my rules lawyer player (whose current character carries an edged rapier, BTW) will angrily protest on the grounds that it is clearly an attempt to place his character at a disadvantage. That's why Icelander's technique created with the Martial Arts rules is the most appealing solution for me so far - I can point to the RAW.

Although it does feel like there's a bit of an oversight regarding spears when it comes to the RAW.