Knockback & mulitiple attacks

[Tinman]

One of my players asked me about this & I'm not sure how to answer. I know it's going to start comming up in our game soon as he's almost got power attack at a level he can reliably use it in combat.

Say he has 3 attacks in this turn: 1 extra attack & 2 rapid strikes.
He hit's a target with all three and does enough damage to cause knockback.
Let's say 1 yard on the first, 2 yds on the second, & 1 yard on the 3rd.

My questions are: [The knockback rules are on B.378]

1) When does the knockback happen? when the target is struck or at the end of the round? (A main reason I even ask, is because retreat says that you are still in range of the enemies multiple attacks eventhough you have moved back.)

2) How is the knockback calculated? based on tota damage of the hits? addup the total knockback based on each hit? or is it just the hit that does the most knockback the only one that counts?

Thx in advance for any thoughts on the matter.

Edit for clarity:
It's a Monster Hunter game. Prety cinimatic I guess, but we try to keep it as realistic as possible.

[Genesis]

This sounds like a pretty cinematic game, so I'd err on the side of increasing awesomeness. I would probably say that you get to hit with all your attacks, and each one causes knockback that can be applied after all three attacks are resolved but each attack has knockback calculated individually, not on the total damage for the turn.

If you're more interested in limiting that sort of silliness (and in the extreme it results in rapid-fire punches from the hero, followed by the enemy flying off into the sky - very cartoon-y) then I'd say let all the attacks hit, but only take the knockback from the biggest one. Any combination worth it's salt wouldn't prematurely launch the opponent out of reach, so I'd say there's a common-sensical rationale.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by Tinman

1) When does the knockback happen? when the target is struck or at the end of the round? (A main reason I even ask, is because retreat says that you are still in range of the enemies multiple attacks eventhough you have moved back.)

I'm not sure what the official ruling is, but I've typically done it after all of attacking player's attacks, for the same reason you mention.

2) How is the knockback calculated? based on tota damage of the hits? addup the total knockback based on each hit? or is it just the hit that does the most knockback the only one that counts?

I would find the knockback distance for each hit and add them together. It doesn't seem right for small attacks to add together to cause knockback when none of them could do it on their own, but it also seems wrong for only one hit to be able to cause knockback. It seems the fairest method.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Genesis

Any combination worth it's salt wouldn't prematurely launch the opponent out of reach, so I'd say there's a common-sensical rationale.

I'm not sure that's something an attacker can control. I've always played that each attack causes knockback, resolved immediately. If you hit someone really hard, that knocks them back, possibly out of your reach, regardless of how skillful you are...

[Genesis]

Originally Posted by Gnome

I'm not sure that's something an attacker can control. I've always played that each attack causes knockback, resolved immediately. If you hit someone really hard, that knocks them back, possibly out of your reach, regardless of how skillful you are...

I could also see that, for sure, in a particularly unforgiving game - but it seems like a bit of a *** for the poor player who made his PC too badass. I assume, for a bit of leniency and for the benefit of the rule of cool in a cinematic game, that an attacker skilled enough to make three attacks a turn is skilled enough to make the attacks in such a way that the first two don't deprive him a target for the third. As the OP mentioned, it also jives with the rules for retreating - namely that the opponent moving backwards doesn't put him out of reach for the rest of the attacks made at that time.

Obviously how you rule it ought to depend on the feel you're going for: in an anime-style, highly cinematic, moderately silly game I might let total damage determine knockback - the genre is full of people getting knocked around. In a four-color supers game, also highly cinematic, and full of people getting punched across the horizon after particularly effective combos, I'd probably let knockback be summed for multiple attacks but based on individual attack damage. The chances for this situation to come up in a non-cinematic game (where the less lenient options might be appropriate) are fairly low, I'd think - most normal people aren't reliably doing multiple attacks with significant knockback each turn.

[cccwebs]

Since each attack and damage is resolved seperately, I'd say that knockback is also resolved in order. If this means that the target is knocked out of range from an earlier attack, then the attacker is out of luck.

[Tinman]

Originally Posted by Genesis

but it seems like a bit of a *** for the poor player who made his PC too badass.

Maybe, but when a character is that over powered It can be problematic for the other players & GM. Having drawbacks to beeing "so cool" might encouage the player to make a more ballanced character. If not, at least it might mitigate the overwhelming carnage.

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by Tinman

One of my players asked me about this & I'm not sure how to answer. I know it's going to start comming up in our game soon as he's almost got power attack at a level he can reliably use it in combat.

Say he has 3 attacks in this turn: 1 extra attack & 2 rapid strikes.
He hit's a target with all three and does enough damage to cause knockback.
Let's say 1 yard on the first, 2 yds on the second, & 1 yard on the 3rd.

My questions are: [The knockback rules are on B.378]

1) When does the knockback happen? when the target is struck or at the end of the round? (A main reason I even ask, is because retreat says that you are still in range of the enemies multiple attacks eventhough you have moved back.)

Knockback happens then damage is dealt. You roll damage, and apply knockback before rolling your second attack's hit roll. If your opponents had been knocked back out of your reach, you can pursue if you have a step left. If you don't have a step left you may be able to select a technique that allows extra movement or reach.

[Bruno]

Most Combinations that launch multiple attacks in the only martial art I'm particularly familiar with (TKD) start with light attacks and then apply a full force attack as the finisher. Jabs, feints, deceptive attacks that use a damage penalty to offset the skill penalty - these are great openers if you're afraid of knocking your enemy out of reach with the big attack of your Combination.

With TKD, we'd often start with a punch (which is lower damage inherently) - usually a fast jab (which is lower damage) and then a full power kick (which gets a damage bonus and is a forceful attack) or even a push-kick (which does double knockback and no damage, and is designed to force the opponent to disengage at the end of your sequence. It also has better Reach than the punch so he's probably still in range when you kick him :) non-variable Reach attacks (like Polearms that require a Ready to shift Reach) can't do things like this, and shouldn't (unless you paid more points for the ability to do it). It's one of the advantages of longer variable reach attacks over fixed/cumbersome reach attacks.

If you're not locked into a Combination or using a perk that gives you +1 for executing a fixed routine (which is an aweful lot like an alternative to combinations :), remember that GURPS does not force you to pin down all your attacks precisely at the start of your turn - although some options or techniques override this. If you Rapid Strike, you only have to declare that you've Rapid Striked - then you resolve the first attack. Then if the foe is out of range before you do your second attack, you can switch to a longer Reach attack that still qualifies to be used on the Rapid Strike. This may result in a wiff if you have no options left.

Generally a big strong guy is raining down multiple attacks for the improved chances to hit; knocking the victim out of the ballpark and possibly down onto his butt (where he takes combat penalties) is still beneficial, even if you loose an attack.

[Maz]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

Knockback happens then damage is dealt. You roll damage, and apply knockback before rolling your second attack's hit roll. If your opponents had been knocked back out of your reach, you can pursue if you have a step left. If you don't have a step left you may be able to select a technique that allows extra movement or reach.

I agree, but don't have time to find a page reference... anyone else?


Btw. If playing cinematic and find this rule a problem you might want to use the Chambara cinematic rules from GURPS:Martial Arts, that allow you to trade in an attack for a step.