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Old 09-13-2021, 05:55 AM   #1
Kaspar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Default Age of Sail Ship Stats (17th century)

Looking through the books for sailship stats.

Sloop, 21ft, Small, Low Tech, $5K
Sailboat, 22ft, Sewn, Low Tech, $1.4K
Sailboat, 37.5ft, SqRig, Low Tech, $15K
Cog, Campaigns, $23K
Brig, 50ft, Low Tech, $165K
Bermuda Sloop, 60ft, Supporting Cast - Age Of Sail Pirate Crew, $350K
Sloop of War, 60ft, Low-Tech Companion 2, $325K
Caravel, 100ft, Low-Tech Companion 2, $325K
Frigate, 100ft, Low-Tech Companion 2, $1.4M
Pole Junk, 140ft, Low-Tech Companion 3, $1.2M (anda number of other cargo ships)

So I made my own list of general ship types, aiming for late 17th century Atlantic and Caribbean.

Length is hull length of main deck (bowsprit not counted) in yards. Beam is maximum hull width. Depth is keel to main deck. Min and Max Draft for unloaded and fully loaded ship. Cargo is metric tonnes, maximum safe capacity for cargo, supplies, guns, etc. Crew is the minimum number of sailors required to handle the rigging in complex maneuvers.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/7_...-no?authuser=0


Still thinking about speed, hp and pricing. Your thoughts on this? Anything I might have overlooked?

PS: Is there a better way to display large tables with proper formating? [Code] tag is rather crappy.

Last edited by Kaspar; 09-13-2021 at 06:12 AM.
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Old 09-13-2021, 06:32 AM   #2
Rupert
 
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Default Re: Age of Sail Ship Stats (17th century)

Hit points should be: the cube root of the empty weight in pounds times 4.

HP = [empty weight]^(1/3) x 4

The cube root of the empty weight in tons times fifty is a fairly close approximation.
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Old 09-13-2021, 09:07 AM   #3
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Default Re: Age of Sail Ship Stats (17th century)

*looks around for hal*
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Old 09-13-2021, 04:16 PM   #4
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Default Re: Age of Sail Ship Stats (17th century)

Possibly of interest: Icelander's extensive Low-tech ships thread.
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Old 09-14-2021, 07:20 AM   #5
hal
 
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Default Re: Age of Sail Ship Stats (17th century)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
*looks around for hal*
While I have an avid interest in Age of Sail ships and such - I've looked at the GURPS rules with a particularly jaundiced eye simply because ship to ship combat via GURPS as a simulation falls vastly short of realistic expectations. A group of musket armed soldiers should not be able to sink the HMS VICTORY through small arms fire - but the rules as written in GURPS, this is actually possible. A ship of the line should be able to endure hours of combat/pounding and still remain afloat - but this is definitely not possible using GURPS rules as written.

As such, I don't even TRY to adapt real world data into GURPS terminology or stats and work it that way.

What I do in lieu of this, is to use actual ship miniature combat rules - as they are purpose built for just that - ship vs ship combat.

If the original poster can find the stats on ships such as length and beam, but not Draft, a decent rule of thumb is to use 1/2 the beam as the actual depth. Generally speaking, Depth in hold will tend to be less than the "draft"

If you're looking for inspiration on how to handle ship to ship combats in a reasonable time for your gaming crew...

HEART OF OAK can be purchased (still in print) for $10 plus shipping and handling. It has rules in it for pre-copper sheathed hulls, and thus would be useful for late 17th century ships. Another thing to consider is that the rules also give you movement rules that would largely be worth using at the table top. Although it uses a 16 point compass instead of 32, it is still worth using and impressing upon your players that a ship moves best when the wind is from a given quarter, and less quickly the more the wind is off the best quarter. There are a fair number of "miniatures" rules that work out even better for your needs as a "Campaign" type of thing - such as sighting distances, weather, and the like - that might be worth your while. Knowing how many crew your ship has and how long it takes to change sails and the like - might be useful as well. The number of men required to raise an anchor and how long it would take could also be useful (maybe not from within HEART OF OAK - but then again, I collect a lot of different rules sets for my pleasure).

If you want to run a campaign set in the Caribbean in the age of piracy, there is an older book out there (out of print) but actually available on Ebay right his second) for $34 plus S&H - called PIRATES! by Iron Crown Enterprises. It is worth your while to pick up in my opinion.

Since you're digging up real world data - let me know if you want the formula for calculating Tons Burthen (British that is). If you have the Length and you have the beam - you can calculate the Burthen value. Also, a good rule of thumb for your "Draft" values are generally speaking, in the ball park of 1/2 Beam. It isn't always accurate, but it is close and if you don't have that value, then it will suffice. Also - keep in mind that depth in hold - if you have it, tends to be a little shy of the actual draft as well - so add a foot or two to depth in hold and that may work as well.

HEART OF OAK will also give you rules for what happens if a Sailing master attempts to tack (will he succeed?) along with events that occur when the wind changes intensity to where the canvas aloft will potentially cause problems. I largely dislike its all or nothing effect, but you could easily adapt those rules to make it that only on a roll of 1/5th that required for a mast to fall - does that happen, but other results might include sails tearing, yardarms cracking or falling, or even the topgallant mast cracking etc.

It never hurts to get a new hobby in life, and picking up a copy of "A Sea of Words" by Dean King may very well help explain concepts and things about sailing that might help you enjoy GM'ing a naval campaign for your gaming crew. It will help you to seed your descriptions with actual nautical terminology and thereby impress (or annoy) your players.

;)
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Old 09-14-2021, 09:58 AM   #6
hal
 
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Default Re: Age of Sail Ship Stats (17th century)

Formulas to derive Tons Burthen

L = Length
B = Beam

Tons =(L x B x 1/2B)/94

This was used for the Naval vessels.

Commercial measurements were similiar but slightly different:

Tons = (L-(3/5B) x B x 1/2B)/94
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Old 09-14-2021, 10:50 AM   #7
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Age of Sail Ship Stats (17th century)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
As such, I don't even TRY to adapt real world data into GURPS terminology or stats and work it that way.
Ah. I knew you knew a lot more about the topic than I do, hence the invocation.

Still, the only thing on the OP's list that's really a GURPS stat is "hp", and the only one tied to the combat mechanics. Length, cargo capacity, crew, speed, price -- all real-world numbers. Price in GURPSbucks might be a little tricky, but just comparing a few ships against the existing examples would provide a conversion factor; a list of historical prices would be as good or better than prices in $.
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Old 09-14-2021, 11:20 AM   #8
Rupert
 
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Default Re: Age of Sail Ship Stats (17th century)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
While I have an avid interest in Age of Sail ships and such - I've looked at the GURPS rules with a particularly jaundiced eye simply because ship to ship combat via GURPS as a simulation falls vastly short of realistic expectations. A group of musket armed soldiers should not be able to sink the HMS VICTORY through small arms fire - but the rules as written in GURPS, this is actually possible. A ship of the line should be able to endure hours of combat/pounding and still remain afloat - but this is definitely not possible using GURPS rules as written.
Unless those musketeers were all hitting a small spot over and over to ablate the armour Victory is safe - two feet of seasoned oak should be ~DR24, which is pretty nearly immune to musket fire.

It's the much more lightly build small ships that get sunk in a few volleys.
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Old 09-14-2021, 12:11 PM   #9
hal
 
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Default Re: Age of Sail Ship Stats (17th century)

I did some digging in my "old stuff" and found a table I had photocopied from a book from the Library (before the internet was invented of course).

Cannon Royal: 7000 lbs (3175 kg) firing a 66 lb (30 kg) ball. Max range of 1900 yards (no accurate range listed).

Cannon: 6000 lbs (2720) firing a 60 lb (27 kg) ball, accurate range 340 yds (311 meters) max range 2000 yds or 1830 meters.

There are more entries if anyone is interested (I won't list the specs on them just now as I'm in a touch of a hurry)

From heaviest to lightest:

Cannon Royal (66 lb)
Cannon (60 lb)
Serpentine (53 lb)
Bastard Cannon (41 lb)
Demi-cannon (30 lb)
Cannon Pedro (24 lb)
Culverin (17 lb)
Basilisco (15 lb)
Demi-Culverin (9 lb)
Bastard Culverin (7 lb)
Saker (5 lb)
Minion (4 lb)
Falcon (2 lb)
Falconet (1 lb)
Serpentine (6 oz)
Robinet (8 oz)

GURPS CLASSIC SWASHBUCKLER gives prices for various cannons based on their throw weight - and gives a formula that the cannon is roughly 200 lbs times the throw weight. Thus, for a 9 lbr Demi-Culverin, that should be 1800 lbs. Listed value in my tables were 3400 lbs. I'll create a table in Excel and determine the general "average" weight of a cannon per pound of shot and list it here later on.

I did take the time to search through the " "GURPS Supporting Cast Age of Sail Pirate Crew" PDF but could find nothing to reference real world stats on such a craft (ie length, beam, draft etc).

I will dig up my book on the HMS Diana, which gives the cost per ton of £14 per ton and whose final cost for the hull was £13,788. The specific outlays of masts and yards was another £2673 and for its armaments of 28 18 lbr guns plus gunner's stores, a further price was paid of £1,000. Rigging was a tad more than the guns to the tune of £1437. The hull if I'm correct in my memory was the late 18th Century (ie 1790's).

on that note, time for me to get some sleep...
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Old 09-15-2021, 09:11 AM   #10
The Colonel
 
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Default Re: Age of Sail Ship Stats (17th century)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
I did some digging in my "old stuff" and found a table I had photocopied from a book from the Library (before the internet was invented of course).

Cannon Royal: 7000 lbs (3175 kg) firing a 66 lb (30 kg) ball. Max range of 1900 yards (no accurate range listed).

Cannon: 6000 lbs (2720) firing a 60 lb (27 kg) ball, accurate range 340 yds (311 meters) max range 2000 yds or 1830 meters.

There are more entries if anyone is interested (I won't list the specs on them just now as I'm in a touch of a hurry)

From heaviest to lightest:

Cannon Royal (66 lb)
Cannon (60 lb)
Serpentine (53 lb)
Bastard Cannon (41 lb)
Demi-cannon (30 lb)
Cannon Pedro (24 lb)
Culverin (17 lb)
Basilisco (15 lb)
Demi-Culverin (9 lb)
Bastard Culverin (7 lb)
Saker (5 lb)
Minion (4 lb)
Falcon (2 lb)
Falconet (1 lb)
Serpentine (6 oz)
Robinet (8 oz)

GURPS CLASSIC SWASHBUCKLER gives prices for various cannons based on their throw weight - and gives a formula that the cannon is roughly 200 lbs times the throw weight. Thus, for a 9 lbr Demi-Culverin, that should be 1800 lbs. Listed value in my tables were 3400 lbs. I'll create a table in Excel and determine the general "average" weight of a cannon per pound of shot and list it here later on.
IIRC there were also variations between some designs that were meant to throw a comparatively small ball a long way and some vice versa. Ironically it also appears that later on the range got cropped - the Napoleonic era seems to have guns mostly between 6 and 32 lb of shot weight.

...and here's Drachinifel from YouTube on the topic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loldlSJ4k_8

Last edited by The Colonel; 09-15-2021 at 09:20 AM.
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