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Old 11-18-2018, 03:58 PM   #21
Blue Ghost
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Spinward Marches
Default Re: Fifty caliber under the hood? How Gauche.

I remember comparing cars in the vehicle guide with contemporary cars at the time (80s), and the thing that struck me were just how heavy CW cars were, or are.

Eh, and I guess the other thing that strikes me as odd is the fact that there's plastic armor. Well, if oil is supposed to be a scarce commodity, then how is it that cars have plastic ablative armor? I mean it's not a big deal. It's just one of those things that's part of the CW-verse. I don't spend too many brain cells on the quandary, but it is there. And it doesn't stop there; i.e. if oil is so scarce, then how do factories make ammunition? (oops, someone brought that up, my bad).

I like Car Wars for what it is. There's quirks about the game, but there's quirks about all fiction … how come Luke Skywalker can fight Vader without some hard core kendo or Schoola St. George sword training? And how come he never accidentally cuts himself with that thing … or someone else? >:)
And how come cars in Hollywood movies always explode and catch fire when they drive over a cliff?

So, your mileage may vary. So to speak.
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Old 11-18-2018, 04:16 PM   #22
Tom H.
 
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Default Re: Fifty caliber under the hood? How Gauche.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal View Post
I guess I'm just bored or something.
I prefer to see it as the passion ;-)

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Originally Posted by Blue Ghost View Post
I like Car Wars for what it is.
It's hugely entertaining to attempt a build that mediates so many combat properties and then pretend you can exercise its success in a simulated environment.
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Old 11-18-2018, 05:48 PM   #23
hal
 
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Default Re: Fifty caliber under the hood? How Gauche.

Which may be why it can be so tough to run a serious GURPS AUTODUEL campaign if you're one to work at closing the credibility gaps. :(

On the flip side, I think it was written in the preface to TRAVELLER 2300 AD's game or perhaps some other science fiction game that said words to the effect that a good SCI-FI background is allowed to break ONE of the rules of science - but try and keep the other's intact.

Ever since I saw that one movie where the guy gets assassinated by an assassin armed with a hand grenade. The elevator doors are closing and the assassin drops the grenade through the gap JUST before it closes - I thought to myself "Gee, that makes it tough to be a bodyguard trying to keep your principle alive!" Ditto with all of those bullets that fly through the air - missing their intended target and then somehow magically not hitting anything else - largely because the focus of the camera is not on the bullets - but the target that is moving.

I guess in a way, that is what the vicarious thrill is of watching movies, or reading stories or hearing them - we get to see the good stuff in our mind's eye without having to see the ugly stuff or the not so glorious stuff as it were. A bullet that missed its intended target but finds another less suitable one is not worthy of attention right? Ask my face to face gamers why they never let the one player armed with a ranged weapon stand behind them. They've been hit by one too many (or a FEW too many) "oopsies" when the player shot at a target and because they were in the line of fire - he gets them instead.

I guess in a way, I'm more of a fan of "Gritty" movies than I am of the "Four Color Hero" movies. I positively LOATHED the movie "THE MUSKETEER". Had a higher up ordered me to dispatch someone, I would seriously NOT rappel down the side of a castle to fight sword to sword against the target of my boss' ire - I'd simply cut the <expletive deleted> rope and let him fall to his death at no risk to myself! The last day of FAST AND FURIOUS 6 found me, my wife and daughter watching the absolute last showing of the movie at the theater on its last day - and I (hard of hearing that I am) could plainly hear my daughter repeating over and over "This is bull<deleted>". The hero can catapult from a moving car at a speed in excess of 55 mph, catch his true love in mid-flight who happens to have been catapulted off her vehicle at a speed in excess of 55 mph for a combined mid-air collision speed in excess of 110 mph - spin, and have Vin land on his back on a moving vehicle's windshield - and not suffer worse than an "oof!" - but have other cast members die from less strenuous circumstances?

So, no, I'm not a fan of the John Woo movies - and oddly enough, Car Wars sort of invites you into to fantasy without really forcing you to evaluate where it is violating the rules of physics here or there (or here AND there!) until someone sits down and analyzes it.

So maybe that is where Car Wars got it right. Sort of looks ok - plays ok, and allows for vicarious fun without the real violence. Apply the "role playing as if you were really there" and that is when things get a touch, perhaps, disjointed.

In any event - being able to simulate relatively realistic things helps avoid the in your face "one thing you messed up about reality". It is the hiding of the false card in a deck filled with real cards so to speak.

So, passion? Hmmm. Perhaps. *teasing grin*. That I still remember my first car wars role playing session after nearly what, 30 some years - tells you that the memories were strong for a reason. Having watched GOTCHA! prior to the game probably didn't help much, and having my wife kill the campaign/scenario with the following questions:

"You driving with a full or empty load?"

Followed by

"How wide is your trailer?"

How are the bad guys supposed to figure out that the player characters loaded their surviving car into a trailer at a truck stop, and then finished their trip as cargo aboard an 18 wheeler? As GM, I couldn't rob my wife (well, girlfriend at the time!) of her hard earned victory. It probably doesn't hurt that I can still visualize Jerry Reed with his Basset Hound from Smokey and the Bandit (as that was my inspiration for the Trucker they met at the truck stop). Ironically? My wife to this day HATES the song "Eastbound and Down". Why? Her father worked in the Trucking industry (which is how she was so comfortable in the campaign when it came to dealing with truckers). Then she got a job working in a Logistics Company. Half of her working life has been working with the accounting side of the Logistics sector... so being put on hold and having to listen to every trucker's favorite song might be a wee bit wearing on her *snicker*.

In any event, I hope that the new Car Wars is something to marvel at, and that they do NOT divorce itself from what made it worth my while... "The building and designing of vehicles" part.

I guess in a way, that is why I sat up and took notice at the so called "Mid-sized" Prius with an actual Vulcan Machine Gun mounted atop of it and thought "This I have to share with the fans at Car Wars". No, it isn't practical. No, it wouldn't really survive an real "car wars duel" simply because it would go through its ammunition so quickly as to be useless. *amused snort*

On the other hand? If you loaded the car to capacity with extra ammo, it might fix the problem of the car recoiling from the sustained rate of fire! Truth is, I now have this picture in my mind of the Prius on a slick icy surface, firing its Vulcan and moving backwards from where it was before it started shooting (sort of the perfect Newtonian physics demonstration that for every reaction, there is an equal and opposite reaction).

ah well, I'll behave now.
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Old 11-19-2018, 08:19 AM   #24
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Fifty caliber under the hood? How Gauche.

I think I'd allow this design in my CW universe. Basically it is a mid-size with a roof mounted EWP with a VMG installed. What's the beef?

Now if we want it to be a HVMG there are a few caveats.

In our campaign we allow fixed mount weapons to follow the same rules as tripod mounted weapons. As they loose all that traversing ability they are half the weight of the weapon itself plus full weight of ammo plus 25lb for the mount. There were rules in ADQ 10-4 (IIRC) but they were more for normally traverse able weapons that could be locked down for some game advantage. As someone else pointed out the mount is functionally is equivalent to a spinal mount from the same issue.

As tripods can only mount a 2 space weapon max. we would need some divergence from even extrapolated rules. But we could hand wave that by just doubling the mount weight (e.g. 50lb for a tripod that can handle a 4 space weapon), but you could also extrapolate from the field carriage rules in UACFH.

The real issue is that we don't see that weapon being fired from a moving platform. Given they had to lay a carpet over the windscreen at the range firing (to protect against discarded cases or possibly just muzzle flash) I doubt they tried that.

If you never intend for your car to move when the gun is firing, I'd let you mount what the heck you want. You would still need to be under the chassis weight limit if you want to move the vehicle when not firing.
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Old 11-19-2018, 04:46 PM   #25
dannybhoy
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Default Re: Fifty caliber under the hood? How Gauche.

For both aesthetic and practical reasons, I've always hated the idea of weapon ports on turrets in CW. Aesthetically, a long-barreled weapon is what you'd associate with a mechanical turret - warships since ironclad days, tanks, WWII bombers etc. Practically, the long-range accuracy of barrels come into play especially where turrets are most useful - on the open road. Not to mention the ludicrous idea of short/micro-barreled tripod/pintle mount weapons in ped campaigns; on a related note, odd that there has been no bipod accessory in CW...

I don't understand why long barrels are Military equipment, when at worst, they should be merely restricted from arena duelling (a practical ruling too since the ranges in arena duelling don't justify them).
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Old 11-19-2018, 04:57 PM   #26
dannybhoy
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Default Re: Fifty caliber under the hood? How Gauche.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Ghost View Post
I remember comparing cars in the vehicle guide with contemporary cars at the time (80s), and the thing that struck me were just how heavy CW cars were, or are.

Eh, and I guess the other thing that strikes me as odd is the fact that there's plastic armor. Well, if oil is supposed to be a scarce commodity, then how is it that cars have plastic ablative armor? I mean it's not a big deal. It's just one of those things that's part of the CW-verse. I don't spend too many brain cells on the quandary, but it is there. And it doesn't stop there; i.e. if oil is so scarce, then how do factories make ammunition? (oops, someone brought that up, my bad).

I like Car Wars for what it is. There's quirks about the game, but there's quirks about all fiction … how come Luke Skywalker can fight Vader without some hard core kendo or Schoola St. George sword training? And how come he never accidentally cuts himself with that thing … or someone else? >:)
And how come cars in Hollywood movies always explode and catch fire when they drive over a cliff?

So, your mileage may vary. So to speak.
That's where expanded universe comes into play! I think it was always assumed that Yoda taught Luke off-screen some basic elements of the different Lightsabre Forms (another EU invention) which Luke that merged into some hybrid style since according to EU, his duelling style was nothing like the traditional Forms in the prequels (according to EU lore, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Yoda, Mace Windu, Count Dooku all had a particular Form preference).

As for cars exploding in Hollywood movies, that's a plot device! Easier and more spectacular to fireball the car to portray a fiery end to the character than to show brain and skull fragments from defenestration.
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Old 11-19-2018, 06:10 PM   #27
Blue Ghost
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Spinward Marches
Default Re: Fifty caliber under the hood? How Gauche.

Thanks for the reply, Danny. I guess my point is that Car Wars, like all fictional settings, has a degree of "suspension of disbelief" in order to sell the incredible story, setting, or some other factor of the fiction.

I don't know what kind of criteria was used to design Car Wars, but I would think it's more for playability than to simulate reality one-hundred percent. I've had fun with Car Wars, and whatever new device comes down the pipe, I'm actually okay with.

Having said that, I've never heard of an EWP being turret mounted. Then again none of the groups I was in were big on EWPs.
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Old 11-20-2018, 06:54 AM   #28
swordtart
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Default Re: Fifty caliber under the hood? How Gauche.

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Originally Posted by dannybhoy View Post
... since the ranges in arena duelling don't justify them ...
The ranges in CW for weapons are probably only appropriate for snub nosed weapons regardless of battlefield.

Consider a rifle in CW. Lets say we are firing at a stationary (+1) man-sized (-3) target out in the open. We are stationary and braced (+2). This gives us a base 58% chance to hit if the target is within 20 yards. That is hardly the most taxing test of marksmanship and should easily be in the capability of a competent shooter (Handgunner 0).

If we increase the range the to hit drops by 1 every 20 yards. At a more plausible 100 yards (the default range of many battle rifles (which are not exactly sniper weapons) the chance to hit drops to less than 10%. I doubt any soldier after basic training would be allowed to get away with such a poor performance.

CW is a short range game to make it interesting, the barrel length argument is more for aesthetics ;)
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Old 11-20-2018, 11:47 PM   #29
LokRobster
 
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Default Re: Fifty caliber under the hood? How Gauche.

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Originally Posted by swordtart View Post
...real issue is that we don't see that weapon being fired from a moving platform. Given they had to lay a carpet over the windscreen at the range firing (to protect against discarded cases or possibly just muzzle flash) I doubt they tried that...
That was my favorite part of the video (i scanned FastForward through most of it), where they do the first live-fire test. The one phase of firing (1/5 second) pushes the Prius back at least 12” / 300mm. The front windshield of the Prius breaks and dents inward from the pressure of the muzzle blasts; the black padding is to keep the window from breaking again!

I think they must have weighed the car down more for the final sequence since it didn’t move backwards as much...

Fun to see physics in action, some weapons really are too large for a passenger-sized vehicle.
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Old 11-21-2018, 12:42 PM   #30
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: Fifty caliber under the hood? How Gauche.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LokRobster View Post
That was my favorite part of the video (i scanned FastForward through most of it), where they do the first live-fire test. The one phase of firing (1/5 second) pushes the Prius back at least 12” / 300mm. The front windshield of the Prius breaks and dents inward from the pressure of the muzzle blasts; the black padding is to keep the window from breaking again!

I think they must have weighed the car down more for the final sequence since it didn’t move backwards as much...

Fun to see physics in action, some weapons really are too large for a passenger-sized vehicle.
now answer this...

Would you have paid good money to see that for real? Do these guys not see the earning potential of taking that vehicle to shows or to that infamous gathering of bikers somewhere out where, the Dakotas? The show has to sell out X number of tickets (Refundable if not used) or they won't demonstrate it. In the meantime, Black Rifle Coffee gets their logo put into the face of many potential customers - win/win...

*sigh*

Yes, corporate sponsorship - another element of car wars rears its ugly head

*snicker*
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