DWA and rapid strikes

[MatthewVilter]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Without additional Advantages there are two ways to attack with 2 weapons in 1 turn.

an Attack option that works with any attack maneuver for a -4/-4 penalty is Dual weapon Attack.

or the Attack maneuver All Out Attack(Double), for -0/-0 to hit but sarrficing defence.

that how you can attack with 2 weapon in one turn. BUT because AoA(Double) is an Attack maneuver you can also use the attack option DWA with it getting 3 attacks at -0/-4/-4 .

Okay wow this is complex stuff. I think I can keep up. :)

How do we know that DWA is an option and not a maneuver? Okay it is NOT a maneuver because all the maneuvers are listed on pages B364-366 but how does that make it an "attack option"? What is an "attack option"? The only information I can see about how to make a DWA is "...instead of an AoA (Double)..." or as a "trade" for one of multiple attacks.

Okay if it is an attack option can you AoA (Double) and DWA with the first attack and RS with the second for 4 attacks at -4/-8/-6/-6? You may not "trade" more than one attack for RS in a turn and it's the same for DWA but this is one of each.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by MatthewVilter

Okay wow this is complex stuff. I think I can keep up. :)

How do we know that DWA is an option and not a maneuver? Okay it is NOT a maneuver because all the maneuvers are listed on pages B364-366 but how does that make it an "attack option"? What is an "attack option"? The only information I can see about how to make a DWA is "...instead of an AoA (Double)..." or as a "trade" for one of multiple attacks.

Okay if it is an attack option can you AoA (Double) and DWA with the first attack and RS with the second for 4 attacks at -4/-8/-6/-6? You may not "trade" more than one attack for RS in a turn and it's the same for DWA but this is one of each.

An attack option are things like Extra Effort, Rapid strike, Deceptive Attack, Basicaly anything you do to modify your attack. but you hit nail on the head the maunvers are described under maunvers, everything else is an option 8)

no you still are still stuck on the 'instead' yes can use it instead of Double toe get 2 attack. But it says later "If you already have multiple attacks -- you may trade only one of these for a Dual-Weapon attack" and AOA(Double) is a ways to get the multile , and unlike RS it does prohibite it use it.

instead is not exclusive it is optional.

Now you second part.. you can't do both at the same time, that the point of the FAQ was it was not eniterly clear in the Basic Set that you can't do both on the same mauver... while AoA(Double) has 2 attacks it is only 1 manuaver.

Hence the Alter Time Rate need to use them both in the same turn.

[MatthewVilter]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

An attack option are things like Extra Effort, Rapid strike, Deceptive Attack, Basicaly anything you do to modify your attack. but you hit nail on the head the maunvers are described under maunvers, everything else is an option 8)

no you still are still stuck on the 'instead' yes can use it instead of Double toe get 2 attack. But it says later "If you already have multiple attacks -- you may trade only one of these for a Dual-Weapon attack" and AOA(Double) is a ways to get the multile , and unlike RS it does prohibite it use it.

instead is not exclusive it is optional.

Now you second part.. you can't do both at the same time, that the point of the FAQ was it was not eniterly clear in the Basic Set that you can't do both on the same mauver... while AoA(Double) has 2 attacks it is only 1 manuaver.

Hence the Alter Time Rate need to use them both in the same turn.

Okay I think I have it!

I can think of RS and DWA as the same thing! RS is a flat -6/-6 and DWA is -4/-8 and can be improved with Ambidexterity and Techniques but you use two hands and so can't do it with only one weapon. You can't use both in one turn (outside of ATR) so they are the same option.

And so on your turn you can:

Attack and defend (Attack maneuver)
-or-
Attack and attack (AoA (double) maneuver)

In both cases you can fight faster (with two hands by DWAing or one by RSing) to get one more attack. But if you do two of you attacks will be at a penalty.

Edit: I'm going to bed. Thank you for all your help so far! Sometime tomorrow I will find out if I have learned as much as I think. ;)

[Palmer]

The easiest way to look at this, I think, would be like so.

You choose a Maneuver which gives you 1 or more Attacks (Move and Attack, AoA, etc). Lets say you use a normal attack maneuver, and thus have 1 attack.

"Swing" is an attack that performs 1 strike
"Kick" is an attack that performs 1 strike
"DWA" is an attack that performs 2 strikes
"RS" is an attack that performs 2 strikes

You can choose RS and make 2 strikes. However, those are two STRIKES, not 2 attacks. Thus you cannot turn one of those rapid strikes into "something that is an attack" like DWA. DWA requires an Attack, not a strike.

- - -

Second rule: If you have multiple attacks per maneuver, only ONE of those attacks can be DWA or RS. If you use AoA(Double) for 2 attacks, only 1 of those 2 attacks can be used on something that gives 2+ strikes.
Basically, you cannot use DWA and RS as part of the same maneuver. You can only use one or the other.

[roguebfl]

A Default Human

May wielding a scimitar with an Attack maneuver may make a single attack and still defend at -0

or he may rapid strike and still defend at -6/-6

or he may AoA(Double) at -0/-0 but can't defend.

if he picks up a second scimitar he may DWA and still defend at -4/-8

or he may AoA(Double), and swap out one of that with RS and get -0/-6/-6 but can't defend.

or he may AoA(Double), and swap out one of that with DWA and get -0/-4/-8 but can't defend.

If you now and Weapon Master(Scimitar) he can RS for -3/-3 and defend.

or AoA(Double) + RS for -0/-3/-3.

Or instead of Weapon Master you and DWA(Scimitar) and either of Off hand trained or ambidexterity

you get Attack and DWA for -0/-0 and defend

or AoA(Double) + DWA for -0/-0/-0 and no defend.

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Um Thr+1 use the Partial Dice Rule. +1 is 0.25 of 5/level or 2 points. the thr comes from Melee (ST-based)

[31] is 1d+1 not +1, base for 31 you doed Thr+1d+1 not Thr+1

+1 dice was from the re-read of your post to make sure I had everything listed. From memory of all the way to early in the morning hours here without it the final cost was 22 pts, not nine.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by MatthewVilter

The only information I can see about how to make a DWA is "...instead of an AoA (Double)..." or as a "trade" for one of multiple attacks.

Perhaps it would be better if it was phrased as "If you have at least two hands, you can strike with two hands at once in place of a single attack, a feat that would normally require an All-Out Attack (Double) maneuver." Occasionally in the text, Attack (the maneuver) and attack (the action) are treated as confusingly interchangeable.

The multiple attacks item includes any time you would get more than one attack in a maneuver, e.g. if you have Extra Attack or take All-Out Attack (Double).

Originally Posted by MatthewVilter

Okay if it is an attack option can you AoA (Double) and DWA with the first attack and RS with the second for 4 attacks at -4/-8/-6/-6? You may not "trade" more than one attack for RS in a turn and it's the same for DWA but this is one of each.

No, one attack in a turn can be traded for one of Rapid Strike, Dual Weapon Attack, or Combination (which is basically a special case of Rapid Strike, introduced in Martial Arts).

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain

+1 dice was from the re-read of your post to make sure I had everything listed. From memory of all the way to early in the morning hours here without it the final cost was 22 pts, not nine.

+1 alone as per partial dice cost 0.25 dice , as it a crushing attach that 0.25 * 5 = 1.25 round up 2 Base cost.

Melee (ST-Based) + 100%
Rapid Fire (100) + 250%
Source (Chi) -10%

Total Modifer + 340%

2 * (1 + 3.4) = 2 * 4.4 = 8.8 round up to 9

Now if you object to my round the 1.25

1.25 * 4.4 = 5.5 rounds up to 6

of you object to the standard rule and insist everything but the optional Multiple Multipliers is wrong.

(2 * 4.5) * (1 - 0.1) = 9 * 0.9 = 8.1 round up 9
or
(1.25 * 4.5) * (1 - 0.1 ) = 5.625 * 0.9 = 5.0625 round up to 6

So not that come close to 21

Originally Posted by RyanW

The multiple attacks item includes any time you would get more than one attack in a maneuver, e.g. Extra Attack or All-Out Attack (Double).

No, one attack in a turn can be traded for one of Rapid Strike, Dual Weapon Attack, or Combination (which is basically a special case of Rapid Strike, introduced in Martial Arts).

Two small point Ryan Extra Attack is not a Maneuver it is an Advantage that like AoA, its and Advantage that adds to Any Attack Maneuver.

Secondly the Rule for Rapid Strike being exclusive with DWA is in the Basic Set but was fuzzy, was Clearfined in the FAQ, then spelt out in Martial Arts.

Bout otherwise you're right 8)

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Two small point Ryan Extra Attack is not a Maneuver it is an Advantage that like AoA, its and Advantage that adds to Any Attack Maneuver.

True. My wording wasn't clear, and I'll edit to fix that.

[MatthewVilter]

Originally Posted by roguebfl

Secondly the Rule for Rapid Strike being exclusive with DWA is in the Basic Set but was fuzzy, was Clearfined in the FAQ, then spelt out in Martial Arts.

:D Yeah that got me at first! After all the help I've gotten here I reread this thread and I can follow it no problem. Thanks for all the help!