Thought I understood the Staff/Spear issue, but...

[Trachmyr]

What I thought I knew:

• Spears, unlike polearms, do get the +2 to Parry when used with Staff skill.

• Form Mastery (spear) allows you to switch between staff/spear as much as you want on your turn.

• Any attempt to use the spear to impale uses spear (or staff-2) skill.

But then I set out to make a kick-butt spear/staff fighter, and I came across something that throws a monkey wrench into the above. Combination Weapons (MA214) seem to offer another possibility using RAW. (Not to mention the “Qian Kun Ri Yue Dao” that has all kinds of non-staffy attack modes)

Take a base quarterstaff, add a Spear, and just for fun add a pick at the other end. You wind up with a 5lb (better for parrying), $90 weapon that can do Sw+2cr, Sw+1Imp, Thr+2cr or Thr+3Imp all at (unmodified) staff skill, plus it can Hook. The downside is that it can’t be thrown and has +1ST requirement, plus it seems that it would be ineligible for the Fine (Balance) mod.

In this case Spear skill and Form Mastery is only needed if you want to use the spear 1-handed.

Am I missing something? Has there been discussion or clarification on this?

Also note that you could do this with a Jo Staff (or even a Yagyuzue or Short Spear) and make a lighter (and shorter reach) weapon…

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Another issue is with “Weapons of Quality” (MA216) and Fine (Balanced) option. Does it apply to spears? What about the combo-weapons presented above? And what happens to the +1 balance when wielded with Staff skill? Does it lose the bonus, or is a spear able to be better balanced as a staff than a staff is?!?

[Gef]

I think you're correct on all counts except that form mastery allows one switch per turn. -GEF

[Trachmyr]

Originally Posted by Gef

I think you're correct on all counts except that form mastery allows one switch per turn. -GEF

No, you can "switch freely" on your turn, the description (MA50) even demonstrates more than one shift on a turn. Grip Mastery however is limited to once per turn... perhaps you were thinking about that.


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But the point I'm trying to make is that using combo weapons by RAW, you can stab with the spear portion of a combo staff/spear at full STAFF skill, not staff-2.

[OldSam]

Originally Posted by Trachmyr

But the point I'm trying to make is that using combo weapons by RAW, you can stab with the spear portion of a combo staff/spear at full STAFF skill, not staff-2.

I don't really see why...? I'd say for no penalties you still have to use the spear-skill... after all due to the spearhead and the needed thrusting attack the weapon is IMHO more like a spear than a plain staff, though it has a different balance (but it also has a different balance and handling than a normal quarterstaff)

[Trachmyr]

Originally Posted by OldSam

I don't really see why...? I'd say for no penalties you still have to use the spear-skill... after all due to the spearhead and the needed thrusting attack the weapon is IMHO more like a spear than a plain staff, though it has a different balance (but it also has a different balance and handling than a normal quarterstaff)

The reason why is that the rules for combination weapons specificly states that you use the weapon's normal skill [i](in this case, Staff)[/] when using any of the additional attack modes added unless the "added part" states otherwise. Only the addition of Kusari segments require the use of an additional skill (the Kusari skill). Adding a spear tip per the combination weapon rules does not specify the need for [i]spear[i] skill... thus when using the Spear tip, you would use the weapon's normal skill... staff.

Yes, this is a departure from other examples of using a spear as a staff, but the above is RAW as per Martial Arts (pg.214).

[OldSam]

Originally Posted by Trachmyr

The reason why is that the rules for combination weapons specificly states that you use the weapon's normal skill [i](in this case, Staff)[/] when using any of the additional attack modes added unless the "added part" states otherwise.

I'd argue that the "base weapon" for the build in that case should not be a staff but a spear, because a spear is more similar to the end product (my background idea is to always use the least needed modification for a combination weapon, although I'm not 100% sure, just assuming that this is intended).

Thus IMHO it's rather a spear with a pick at the end, than a quarterstaff with a spearhead and a pick.
But that's just my interpretation of course... ;)

[Victor Maxus]

Not to sure about this, but I think adding the pick onto it woud unbalance the weapon and to use it properly would require an axe/mace skill. Thus swinging with the pick part not only would need another skill but you could not parry with it that turn do to the unbalancing nature.

Not sure about that, but I hope others who know better may sound off on this.

[Anaraxes]

it's rather a spear with a pick at the end...
the "base weapon" for the build in that case should not be a staff but a spear

Unless of course it's really a pick with a spearhead/spike on the end of the (elongated) handle :)

[Trachmyr]

I understand your points (and i do not nessicarily disagree)... but that is not the way p214 of Martial Arts reads at all!

It says to start with a base weapon, of which is specificly mentions the staff as a common choice.... and all new attack modes will be based on that weapon's usual skill unless mentioned otherwise. Neither the Pick or Spear addon mentions the use of an additional skill, thus the rules for combo weapons would require you to use staff skill for both the thr+3imp spear strike and the sw+1imp pick swing.

Can anyone see where I'm reading the rules for Combination Weapons wrong (on pg.214 of Martial Arts)... or tell me if it's been errat'd or clarified in another thread/book/etc.

[Dustin]

Per the exact wording of the Combination Weapons rules on MA214, yes you are right. It's worth taking a step back and looking at the intent of the entire box, which is to allow minor additions to existing weapons, not transformative ones. Anything created here should get reviewed by the GM to ensure it isn't silly or unbalancing.

For example, you can also use these rules to add a spearpoint to a Hatchet and do Thr+2 imp one-handed, same as a Thrusting Broadsword and better than a Shortsword. My suggestion would be not to treat that box as if it were a weapon design system - that's not its intent.