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Old 07-09-2016, 11:21 PM   #1
McAllister
 
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Default Staff DWA

Everywhere DWA is written up, it specifies that each hand has to be unarmed, holding a one-handed melee weapon, or holding a pistol. What if each hand is holding one end of staff? Is there any way to get a DWA with that? I've read Martial Arts. Maybe it comes up in DF, but I wouldn't know what book to read.

If the answer is no, how bad an idea would it be to homebrew? How about a perk that gives DWA using each end of a weapon wielded with the Staff skill, but removes the -1 to defend against it? I figure the defense penalty comes from the two attacks being able to be really simultaneous, which they aren't in the case of a staff, but surely it's better than swinging one end, pulling it back and swinging it again.
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Old 07-09-2016, 11:31 PM   #2
simply Nathan
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Default Re: Staff DWA

Just use Rapid-Strike. Dual-Weapon Attack is for using two weapons, not a single two-handed weapon.
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Old 07-09-2016, 11:48 PM   #3
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Default Re: Staff DWA

The ST for a quarterstaff is 7. That seems low to me but we'll roll with it. The dagger notation meaning (per Basic p. 270) a character with ST 11 (7 * 1.5 round up) can use one one-handed but it becomes unready after an attack. Someone with ST 14 could wield it one handed. So, RAW, a ST 14 combatant could fight with two quarterstaffs using DWA.

Why do I think that required ST is low? I own and have used a quarterstaff (mine is just over 8' long -- sized according to George Silver's recommendation for the short staff). I used to be pretty strong (but not ST 14) but I don't think that I could have ever used my staff in one hand. At least not meaningfully. Unready after use? Absolutely. But would a one-handed swing have been accurate or liable to injure? Doubtful.

Really, for DWA stickfighting stick to something closer to a Basic's Short Staff/Baton or what Martial Arts calls a "Jo."
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Old 07-10-2016, 01:53 AM   #4
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Default Re: Staff DWA

See, this is an immersion issue for me. The idea that the best way for someone with ST 12+ to use DWA with the Staff skill is to use two different jo to do it... seems wrong.

I have, since posting this, found in the Qian Kun Ri Yue Dao's description an option to DWA with it, against two adjacent foes. LTC2, p. 18, has a similar entry for holding the middle of a staff and thrusting it into two people at once. This makes some sense, but also isn't what I'm looking for, and unrelatedly I'm really not fond of rules showing up in weapon entries that would make sense when applied to other weapons.

So the forum is telling me that the only benefit to striking with the other end of a quarterstaff is not having to buy Multi-Attack on one level of Extra Attack, and that's all that's reasonable? Clearly not what I wanted to hear, but I guess I'll have to deal with it.
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Old 07-10-2016, 02:12 AM   #5
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Default Re: Staff DWA

You may be able to convince your GM to let you use it as a Technique to reduce the Rapid Strikes penalty, but, DWA is named Dual Weapon for a reason.
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Old 07-10-2016, 06:41 AM   #6
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Default Re: Staff DWA

Quote:
Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
See, this is an immersion issue for me. The idea that the best way for someone with ST 12+ to use DWA with the Staff skill is to use two different jo to do it... seems wrong.
That's because you're insisting on seeing someone who pushes an attack forward with one hand and then with another as "Dual weapon attack." In fact, a staff works nothing like that: both hands work in tandem with each other, no matter what they're doing, when using a staff. You cannot make an attack with one hand while making an unrelated attack with the other with the same staff. That's not possible. You'd need two staves (or two halves of a stave) to do that.

What you're doing is a rapid strike, first with one end, and then with the other. Now, if you want to make that easier, say that while in a defensive grip (the grip you're describing), a staff halves the penalties for a rapid strike, or something. That'll work. But you're not making a dual weapon attack.
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Old 07-10-2016, 06:41 AM   #7
simply Nathan
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Default Re: Staff DWA

Quote:
Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
So the forum is telling me that the only benefit to striking with the other end of a quarterstaff is not having to buy Multi-Attack on one level of Extra Attack, and that's all that's reasonable? Clearly not what I wanted to hear, but I guess I'll have to deal with it.
No, there's an attack option called Rapid Strike where you take -6 to skill in order to hit with the same weapon twice in one turn. This penalty is reduced by Weapon Master.

You don't need to buy Extra Attack for this and Dual-Weapon attack seems...inappropriate. I know that's how D&D treats staves but D&D is far from the best game for balance and for realism.
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Old 07-10-2016, 07:48 AM   #8
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Default Re: Staff DWA

The -1 penalty against a single foe for DWA is also inappropriate for repeated quick blows with alternating ends of a staff. There's no divided attention or difficulties in countering two simultaneous attacks, because the staff isn't doing simultaneous attacks.

It seems far more immersion-breaking to me to try to imagine both ends of a rigid rod taking independent paths through space at the same time to form a coordinated attack against a foe than to imagine the two heels alternating with each other in a Rapid Strike.
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Old 07-10-2016, 10:49 AM   #9
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Default Re: Staff DWA

Quote:
Originally Posted by McAllister View Post
Clearly not what I wanted to hear, but I guess I'll have to deal with it.
You cannot strike simultaneously with both ends of the staff at the same target, therefor you cannot gain the bonus for DWA.

That's basically the crux of your issue.
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Old 07-12-2016, 06:20 AM   #10
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Default Re: Staff DWA

Quote:
Originally Posted by McAllister View Post

I have, since posting this, found in the Qian Kun Ri Yue Dao's description an option to DWA with it, against two adjacent foes. LTC2, p. 18, has a similar entry for holding the middle of a staff and thrusting it into two people at once. This makes some sense, but also isn't what I'm looking for, and unrelatedly I'm really not fond of rules showing up in weapon entries that would make sense when applied to other weapons.
In Gurps Martial Arts


The entry for the Qian is a thrust cutting attack ar close range and I would imagine this attack is describing using both hand guards to cross check someone. Thus its attacking like a DWA. One weapon motion, two attacks.

A similar entry can be found with the 3 part staff
This is because the weapon is very long, and is segmented, allowing for one to wield it as two separate shorter staffs or fighting sticks.

This also would be one motion, two attacks.

Any time a separate motion is made in my game I call it a rapid strike. I also rigidly separate the two.

DWA means one roll for damage and double it, one
Successful active defense avoids both.

Rapid means two separate swing rolls two separate dmg rolls, two separate defense rolls, and feints can be traded out with attacks on a 1 to 1 basis
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