Alternative attributes, Supers and other stuff

[Malfi]

Originally Posted by Andreas

Even at 10 points for strenght, super-strength enhancement makes strenght much better than innate attack at high point totals.

I think the main consideration here is if you want linear or exponential scaling of damage and defenses with cp spent. If you go for linear, remove super-strength, remove IT(DR), and probably lower the cost of ST.

Yes that's very accurate.
I think strength cost 5 works realy well, its still slower than innate attack but with the bonuses and powerblow it evens out.
The weird thing about it is that now hp and lifting strength are cheaper which I don't remember being an issue.
I also think IT(dr) is fine in a linear scaling game if you allow it up to 4.

Originally Posted by Andreas

If you go for exponential, mabye add a limitation to ST, can't use super-strength -50%, to make it less expensive for people who don't take advantage of super-strength.

So basically strength costs 5 per level unless you take super strength. I wonder if you want non linear scalling could you go with super strength, strength cost at 5 and the +400% super enhancement for innate attacks or will things go extremely out of wack?

Originally Posted by Andreas

I'm not sure of power talents need any limits. For goodlike extra effort I would probably just not use it at all (and perhaps limit normal extra effort for powers as well). It makes having more FP and faster FP recovery extremely powerful, and you could get stronger abilities which only be used some of the time in other ways as well (limited use, cost FP etc.).

I think that's part of the reason why alternate attributes advises increasing FP cost in super games.
What about this max power talent 4 and you can spent up to power talent level extra effort. So if someone want to go all out with 20will he can take -8 for +45% increase, *4 for fp, +180% increase ends up with 2,8 times the damage, which isn't that crazy.
For faster fp recovery honestly its very rare to see published abilities that increase your fp recovery, you can always not allow such abilities.
All that said it propably also works allowing very high power talent and no godlike extra effort. I guess my main problem with very high power talent is it makes psionic techniques very easy it use, not to mention imbuements and stuff like that. Ofcourse they is no need to use psionics with skills/techniques and no need to allow imbuements.

Originally Posted by Andreas

Other than the obvious alternative of just giving more than 3 cp, there is also the option of letting improvements mainly come from in-game reasons. For example if you attach a cybernetic arm, then your point total just increases, and if you switch minds with a wealthy person, then you have access to all that wealth (at least as long as it isn't discovered).

I guess that's the best way. The problem I found with granting many cp's is that you can end up with a story that breaks down as the players start overwhelming it. So its better to award lots of cp, if you are going that route, at the end of a story/adventure.
I am considering awarding cp in the end of a story arc, instead of the session as suggested in a pyramid issue, equal to the progression of 3,5,7,10,15,20,30,50,70,100 etc plus all the cp players would have gotten normally at every session, that way at least later in the campaign when the power level jumps I will be able to create a story fitting to the pc's.

Originally Posted by Refplace

Powerblow is addressed in the KYOS article, it just adds ST rather than multiplying it.

Originally Posted by Anders

To simulate "double ST with Powerblow", you quadruple Basic Lift, so that's +6 ST. "Triple ST" is +10.

I do agree that around ST 40 or so damage starts to get too low for believability. On the other hand, people in superhero comics survive blows from guys who can lift mountains, so it kind of fits the genre. You may want to triple or quadruple damage to inanimate objects to provide satisfying destruction of the environment.

The problem for KyoS is a part of is linear the other is logarithmic. I guess you can use power blow that way but again you will end up with insane lifting and very little actual damage, which may fit some super hero comics, but isn't really what I am aiming towards.
If I use KyoS I would simply allow allow striking strength to reach the equivalent of the lifting. So for 40 KyoS I would allow around 100 levels of extra striking strength. This because I want to make the damage-lifting connection kinda realistic. That said I do remember an article from gaming balistic blog that says realistically strength should do half damage, so maybe 30 levels of striking strength in that case.

[Malfi]

Originally Posted by nudj

I think ST should be 5 pts per level period. Double it as a UB in low tech Fantasy where the GM is strictly controlling innate attack.

So not cheaper than 5.

Originally Posted by nudj

I don't like Super ST because there is no corresponding log progression for innate attack. I prefer Godlike Extra Effort + ST at 5 per level, since it puts all abilities (innate attack, TK, even DR) on the same scale. With 150 points for 10 Fatigue per second recovery + the rules example in Chinese Elemental Powers for skill based godlike extra effort, things can get things really powerful fast if you want M scale.

I'd still use Damage Reduction, although it's awkward.

I also like KYOS for the lift ST, but it needs expanded rules. You still need GEE for damage OR quadruple damage for inanimate objects like Anders suggests.

Regarding Godlike extra effort + str at 5 per level+ fatigue recovery+damage reduction I commented about it above. Another issue with godlike extra effort is that it affects many advantages not just damage.

[Malfi]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

https://www.gamesdiner.com/rules-nug...r-cost-for-st/

TL:DR costs drop after level 20 and every 'step' of S/SR costs 50pts (going from 20 to 30, from 30 to 50, 50 to 70, 70 to 100, etc).

This has been my go to for years and is a much better solution to me than Super ST. I also apply it to all damage-based flat leveled traits such as IA, DR, etc. Namely, this lets ST be an actual choice for street-level supers and for very high powered supers who have to compete with other 600+ cost traits.

How do you apply it to IA and DR?

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Malfi

The problem for KyoS is a part of is linear the other is logarithmic. I guess you can use power blow that way but again you will end up with insane lifting and very little actual damage, which may fit some super hero comics, but isn't really what I am aiming towards.
If I use KyoS I would simply allow allow striking strength to reach the equivalent of the lifting. So for 40 KyoS I would allow around 100 levels of extra striking strength. This because I want to make the damage-lifting connection kinda realistic. That said I do remember an article from gaming balistic blog that says realistically strength should do half damage, so maybe 30 levels of striking strength in that case.

Is this actually realistic? Does damage scale with lifting? I see that intuitively it makes sense for some who lifts 10X to do 10X damage, but what evidence is there that it actually works like that in reality?

Under KYOS ST 10 does 1d-1 thrust so that would mean ST 20 would do 10d-10 or 8d-3?

[AlexanderHowl]

Damage is based on the square root of the energy expended (changes in velocity) while lifting capacity is based on the energy expended (changes in energy expended), so 10x lifting capacity would only allow for ~3x as much damage. I think that GURPS acknowledges this relationship makes it a more realistic system than most.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Damage is based on the square root of the energy expended (changes in velocity) while lifting capacity is based on the energy expended (changes in energy expended), so 10x lifting capacity would only allow for ~3x as much damage. I think that GURPS acknowledges this relationship makes it a more realistic system than most.

Is that a simplified model? Or are those the only variables?

[AlexanderHowl]

A simplified model. During collisions, HP, a function of mass and hardness, also matters for damage calculations.

[Malfi]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Is this actually realistic? Does damage scale with lifting? I see that intuitively it makes sense for some who lifts 10X to do 10X damage, but what evidence is there that it actually works like that in reality?

Under KYOS ST 10 does 1d-1 thrust so that would mean ST 20 would do 10d-10 or 8d-3?

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Damage is based on the square root of the energy expended (changes in velocity) while lifting capacity is based on the energy expended (changes in energy expended), so 10x lifting capacity would only allow for ~3x as much damage. I think that GURPS acknowledges this relationship makes it a more realistic system than most.

I simply used KyoS to find the basic lift then converted it to normal strength and then got to that strengths damage.
I am pretty sure its not perfect by any means but my aim was to follow the Basic book strength chart.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Malfi

I simply used KyoS to find the basic lift then converted it to normal strength and then got to that strengths damage.
I am pretty sure its not perfect by any means but my aim was to follow the Basic book strength chart.

What makes you think the relationship damage has with lifting is better or more realistic on the chart from 4e Basic?

Basic 4ed uses the same ST damage table as 3rd ed, but 4e has geometric lifting and 3rd was linear lifting. By your logic ST 20 (4X ST 10 lift) in 4th edition should do "thr 4d+1 sw 7d-1" because that's what ST 40 (4X ST 10 lift) did in 3rd edition. And ST 20 in KYOS should do "thr 11d sw 13d" because that's what ST 100 (10X ST 10 lift) did in 3rd.

[AlexanderHowl]

Personally, I find KYOS less realistic than the default ST system. If you just want large increases in lifting capacity relative to overall ST, Lifting ST does a phenomenal job. I treat Lifting ST and Striking ST as Secondary Characteristics anyway, so I allow characters to purchase Lifting ST and Striking ST at +/- 30% ST without any issues and up to +100% ST with Special Exercises (Lifting ST can exceed ST by 100%) and Special Exercises (Striking ST can exceed ST by 100%). Lifting ST and Striking ST are never unbalanced, though they are overvalued in high TL settings, so I have never really understood why they are considered exotic advantages, as it just simplifies things to have them as Secondary Characteristics.