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Old 06-21-2018, 05:39 AM   #11
KevinJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Arizona
Default Re: Should IQ Levels for Talents Be Reduced?

For me, the issue comes from what IQ represents. Basically, IQ is IQ/10, so a character withn IQ 10 is considered to have 100 IQ. IQ12 id 120 IQ. IQ16 is 160 IQ. I'm pretty sure that you can be a Ku8ng Fu Master without having to have a 140 IQ. The new game will not be about having a huge IQ so you can afford more talents, but having an IQ sufficient to learn the most potent talent and then spending XP on those talents. This doesn't mean there is anything wrong with a high IQ, but to have it just to be good at beating people up is a bit rediculous.

P.S.: High IQ does not mean you are wise or in touch with the uniserve, only that your mind works very well in a certain way.
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Old 06-21-2018, 05:44 AM   #12
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: Should IQ Levels for Talents Be Reduced?

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Originally Posted by KevinJ View Post
For me, the issue comes from what IQ represents. Basically, IQ is IQ/10, so a character withn IQ 10 is considered to have 100 IQ. IQ12 id 120 IQ. IQ16 is 160 IQ. I'm pretty sure that you can be a Ku8ng Fu Master without having to have a 140 IQ. The new game will not be about having a huge IQ so you can afford more talents, but having an IQ sufficient to learn the most potent talent and then spending XP on those talents. This doesn't mean there is anything wrong with a high IQ, but to have it just to be good at beating people up is a bit rediculous.

P.S.: High IQ does not mean you are wise or in touch with the uniserve, only that your mind works very well in a certain way.
Grasshopper, there is more to Kung Fu than beating people up 😂😂😂
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Old 06-21-2018, 05:48 AM   #13
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Should IQ Levels for Talents Be Reduced?

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I'm very fond of the Talent system pretty much as it is and would not be happy with wholesale changes. I certainly don't want average IN to be 8 or anything of that nature. If you really see a persuasive argument to reduce the IN requirement for some physical Talents then so be it, but I'd advise caution.

Looking at UC Talents for example I don't see a problem with the higher Talent levels requiring higher intelligence. I've heard people say these Talents are purely physical but I don't see them that way at all. To me, reaching the higher levels of the Talent have involved diligent study of the ancient texts, contemplation, deep meditation etc and I believe the high IQ requirement is justified. The UCV martial artist isn't a champion MMA brawler but the Wise and Mystical Master of the Kung Fu movies. This matches the "cinematic" feel and intent of the rules as stated by Steve himself.
After an unarmed combat artist sinks 28 points into IQ and DX for UC III, having fought unarmed in close combat, wearing nothing heavier than cloth, he can finally take the defend option while he's fighting? So that's 36 points minimum, assuming he's at a fragile ST 8 (or maybe 34 if it's an elf with ST 6 who somehow lived to gain 2 attribute points?)

Are these ruminations about UC actually based on experience? The wise master is a great concept but I wonder if TFT really supports it. How many UC characters have actually survived to be able to get UC III?

If UC fighters have made it there and depended on house rules to do it, I can understand that. But then we're not talking about the talent system as it is.

Personally, I'm hoping for heavy modification when it comes to UC in particular. As it is, I don't seen Kwai Chang Caine coming out of the temple until he's got 38 attribute points so he can at least have UC III with ST 10.

Once he reaches 40 points, he'll finally be able to get to UC V. With ST 10.

Look, martial arts masters are not generally of average strength. These guys exercise a LOT. I'm not against a slow progression to get to UC V but I AM against making it impossible to have strong UC characters. What about making it slow to get to UC V without requiring a high IQ?

For instance, if there was only a DX requirement and no IQ requirement at all (which I think makes a lot of sense), along with the talent prereqs, certain UC talents could have an attribute total prerequisite, representing "life experience". That would keep the progression slow without tying it to IQ.

Another way to slow the progression without using IQ would be to broaden the UC talent tree, with higher level UC talents requiring more than one prereq talent, each subtree representing an area of mastery. Your HTH and talent additions are a good start, but there are still other areas to mine within AM: charge (flying kick) and sweeping blow (1000-blows), etc.

Last edited by zot; 06-21-2018 at 05:49 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old 06-21-2018, 06:30 AM   #14
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: Should IQ Levels for Talents Be Reduced?

"Are these ruminations about UC actually based on experience? The wise master is a great concept but I wonder if TFT really supports it. How many UC characters have actually survived to be able to get UC III?"

Certainly not based on experience of Player characters, as no one ever took more than 2 levels of UC in my games. But I did use the higher levels for NPCs. The higher levels were something to aspire to at very high levels of power, which none of my PCs ever reached through normal play.
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Old 06-21-2018, 09:29 AM   #15
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Adjustments to UC talents.

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Originally Posted by zot View Post
After an unarmed combat artist sinks 28 points into IQ and DX for UC III, ...
Personally, I'm hoping for heavy modification when it comes to UC in particular. As it is, I don't seen Kwai Chang Caine coming out of the temple until he's got 38 attribute points so he can at least have UC III with ST 10.

Once he reaches 40 points, he'll finally be able to get to UC V. With ST 10.

Look, martial arts masters are not generally of average strength. These guys exercise a LOT. I'm not against a slow progression to get to UC V but I AM against making it impossible to have strong UC characters. What about making it slow to get to UC V without requiring a high IQ? ...
Hi Zot,
The talent Unarmed Combat Five (UC v), will be a LOT easier to get in the new TFT, since you can pick up as many talents as you want with experience. (Steve is adding Karma, so survival will likely be increased as well, so characters will last long enough to earn that experience as well.)

I actually like a minimum IQ for the talents but currently they are fairly high. How about IQ 7, 8, 9, 10, & 11 for UC i thru UC v respectively?

I think your idea of adding a minimum ST to the better talents is neat.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 06-21-2018, 09:50 AM   #16
zot
 
Join Date: May 2018
Default Re: Adjustments to UC talents.

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Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
Hi Zot,
The talent Unarmed Combat Five (UC v), will be a LOT easier to get in the new TFT, since you can pick up as many talents as you want with experience. (Steve is adding Karma, so survival will likely be increased as well, so characters will last long enough to earn that experience as well.)

I actually like a minimum IQ for the talents but currently they are fairly high. How about IQ 7, 8, 9, 10, & 11 for UC i thru UC v respectively?

I think your idea of adding a minimum ST to the better talents is neat.

Warm regards, Rick.
I have one player who LOVES monks (and I like them too) and if the IQ requirements went down, he'd be soooo happy. Since UC IV and V each increase the DX requirement, should they also increase the IQ requirement? What about only only increasing one attribute requirement at a time, like with Warrior and Veteran, so IQ 7 (DX 13), 7 (DX 14), 8, 8 (DX 15), 8 (DX 16)? Or start with a higher base, like IQ 8 or 9. Increasing both the IQ and the DX requirement at the same time seems harsh to me. Or something. Just thinking out loud about it.

Is the idea you're talking about the one where certain talents have only a required ST or DX instead of a required IQ? I hope that one sticks... :D
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Old 06-21-2018, 10:29 AM   #17
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Re: Adjustments to UC talents.

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Originally Posted by zot View Post
...Is the idea you're talking about the one where certain talents have only a required ST or DX instead of a required IQ? I hope that one sticks... :D
Hi Zot,
No I had suggested that UC v have an IQ requirement of 11. But keeping the IQ high I don't MIND, but I think a reasonable argument could be made for moving it down a bit.

I wouldn't mind alternating DX requirements and ST requirements. (So for example, UC iii might require a DX of 12+, then UC iv could require a ST of 10+.)

With the changes to TFT with a low max attribute total, there is an argument to reducing or eliminating the attribute requirements for talents.

Warm regards, Rick
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Old 06-21-2018, 01:07 PM   #18
KevinJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Arizona
Default Re: Should IQ Levels for Talents Be Reduced?

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Grasshopper, there is more to Kung Fu than beating people up 😂😂😂
Don't taunt happy funball, for this one is a master in Tae KWon Leap. BOOT TO THE HEAD!
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Old 06-21-2018, 01:07 PM   #19
JLV
 
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Location: Far northern California
Default Re: Should IQ Levels for Talents Be Reduced?

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... but I'd advise caution.
THIS -- in spades. Tinkering with a system as interlocked as TFT is, is like playing Pechenga. If you pull something out, the whole thing could come down, and it's hard as heck to push something into the middle.

(Which is why I want Steve to do all the hard work here -- he's the guy with the real insight! ;-) )
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Old 06-21-2018, 01:11 PM   #20
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: Should IQ Levels for Talents Be Reduced?

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Don't taunt happy funball, for this one is a master in Tae KWon Leap. BOOT TO THE HEAD!
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