the "outrageous attribute" problem

[ecz]

The "outrageous attribute" seems it is a known and big problem for many here. Not for me, so I would know how PCs develop in your games.

In my games, usually with an average of 3-4 hours per session:

- who dies restart with a new PC having the same number of attribute points -1 of the PC having LESS points still alive in the party OR with the same number of attribute points of the PC just dead -1 (whichever is less):
- all players start at 32 points (30 for halflings);
- they reach 36 points very soon, in about 4 or 5 sessions;
- then the growing rate slows down until 40 points. Probably another 10 sessions are necessary, perhaps more, to reach 40 points;
- at this point the growing rate becomes really low and they seldom reach 45 points or more. Usually the PCs are killed in action or the game quits naturally (consider we have played about 50 sessions in more than a year);
-note that I use also ageing house rules starting from 40 y.o. to help to keep in control the attribute level of all PCs. These house rules never limited any hero in meaningful way, however.

The above cycle, from the starting session to a natural end, happened about a dozen times from the mid '80 when I first discovered TFT to the last time we played a CG, so I really never experienced the outrageous attribute problem as many of you did.

please report your experience and let me understand how your PCs can reach 50+ points during your CGs
thanks

[larsdangly]

I think there is only one way to reach absurd and game-distorting attribute levels in TFT without cheating: surviving until you have quite a high ST score, and then taking on job with a high risk (which generally also gives you a significant chance of gaining one attribute point each month). If you do this too early, you will simply get killed when your risk roll turns against you. But, if your ST score is about 20 or more, there really is almost no chance you will die as a result of your job, but you will gain a stat point every year or so, on average.

I don't think you need to do anything to manage stat point growth, other than the following: (1) don't cheat. (2) run campaigns with a significant risk level, accepting that PC's will tend to die within ~10-20 adventures. If you stick to these principles, no PC is ever going to survive so long that they can milk the job rules to the point where they have stat totals of 60 or more. Below that, I don't think there is a problem to be fixed. Characters with 45-50 stat points are seasoned, successful and tough. They can also die in the blink of an eye if they are regularly exposed to dangerous foes, and easily outclassed by several monsters that are standard parts of the game. What's the problem?

[JLV]

Originally Posted by ecz

The "outrageous attribute" seems it is a known and big problem for many here. Not for me, so I would know how PCs develop in your games.

In my games, usually with an average of 3-4 hours per session:

- who dies restart with a new PC having the same number of attribute points -1 of the PC having LESS points still alive in the party OR with the same number of attribute points of the PC just dead -1 (whichever is less):
- all players start at 32 points (30 for halflings);
- they reach 36 points very soon, in about 4 or 5 sessions;
- then the growing rate slows down until 40 points. Probably another 10 sessions are necessary, perhaps more, to reach 40 points;
- at this point the growing rate becomes really low and they seldom reach 45 points or more. Usually the PCs are killed in action or the game quits naturally (consider we have played about 50 sessions in more than a year);
-note that I use also ageing house rules starting from 40 y.o. to help to keep in control the attribute level of all PCs. These house rules never limited any hero in meaningful way, however.

The above cycle, from the starting session to a natural end, happened about a dozen times from the mid '80 when I first discovered TFT to the last time we played a CG, so I really never experienced the outrageous attribute problem as many of you did.

please report your experience and let me understand how your PCs can reach 50+ points during your CGs
thanks

I personally have already answered this multiple times.

[JLV]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

I think there is only one way to reach absurd and game-distorting attribute levels in TFT without cheating: surviving until you have quite a high ST score, and then taking on job with a high risk (which generally also gives you a significant chance of gaining one attribute point each month). If you do this too early, you will simply get killed when your risk roll turns against you. But, if your ST score is about 20 or more, there really is almost no chance you will die as a result of your job, but you will gain a stat point every year or so, on average.

I don't think you need to do anything to manage stat point growth, other than the following: (1) don't cheat. (2) run campaigns with a significant risk level, accepting that PC's will tend to die within ~10-20 adventures. If you stick to these principles, no PC is ever going to survive so long that they can milk the job rules to the point where they have stat totals of 60 or more. Below that, I don't think there is a problem to be fixed. Characters with 45-50 stat points are seasoned, successful and tough. They can also die in the blink of an eye if they are regularly exposed to dangerous foes, and easily outclassed by several monsters that are standard parts of the game. What's the problem?

Well, based on personal experience alone, I can say that this is just wrong. Also, very one-faceted. XP should (and in my games, do) come from lots of different things. See Page 10 of ITL. If you aren't running a game designed purely as a murder hobo campaign, then your characters ought to be earning XP for a lot of different things, not just jobs or cutting throats.

[ecz]

Originally Posted by JLV

I personally have already answered this multiple times.

sorry, I'm a new forumite and did not read everything here. I started but I'm at half way...

anyway probably I get what you mean.

since the good PC in the right party can earn exp pts from multiple sources, it happens more often than not that a well managed party in a well mastered CG, can reach the higher levels and so heroes can easily break the 50+ points barrier

[larsdangly]

Originally Posted by JLV

Well, based on personal experience alone, I can say that this is just wrong. Also, very one-faceted. XP should (and in my games, do) come from lots of different things. See Page 10 of ITL. If you aren't running a game designed purely as a murder hobo campaign, then your characters ought to be earning XP for a lot of different things, not just jobs or cutting throats.

The only thing I see on p.10 that I didn't have in mind when I wrote my comment is GM discretion. Setting that aside, I'll stand by what I wrote. If you are a member of a typical gaming group you probably play once per week for 4 hours per session. Given the lethality of TFT, I suspect a would rarely involve you personally defeating 5-10 moderately competent foes per session, and succeeding at a few 4-die rolls (5-die rolls are unusual enough, and easy enough to fail that I won't worry about them). So, that sounds to me like you are earning roughly 300 EXP per week (and in my experience that would be a pretty generous haul). At that rate it will take a year to reach 48 attribute points, two years to reach 52 and 6 years to reach 60.

I know a few people who really like TFT. I don't personally know any who are playing several hours every week over years (I suppose I did in the mid 80's, but I don't know anyone who's played it so intensely and continuously since). In any event, it is a major time investment to bring a character into the 50-60 point range.

For reference, a few NPC's from Tollenkar's Lair: Cpt. Littlejohn (of the Bravo's) has 52 points. Tollenkar has 60. Tarve has 52. Ranulf 50. So, the world, at least as presented in the published books, is a dangerous place where you are going to run into people a lot like you but with 50 or more character points, and some of them are going to try to kill you.

Anyway, I don't see the problem. It is possible to have a character who is on the same rank of power as the tougher NPC's you run across, but it takes years to get there, and won't be easy to reach without getting killed off through some twist of fate. It strikes me as pretty similar to the experience of playing pre-4th edition D&D (when you don't cheat!) and many other games.

[JLV]

Originally Posted by ecz

sorry, I'm a new forumite and did not read everything here. I started but I'm at half way...

anyway probably I get what you mean.

since the good PC in the right party can earn exp pts from multiple sources, it happens more often than not that a well managed party in a well mastered CG, can reach the higher levels and so heroes can easily break the 50+ points barrier

Precisely! ;-)

[JLV]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

The only thing I see on p.10 that I didn't have in mind when I wrote my comment is GM discretion. Setting that aside, I'll stand by what I wrote. If you are a member of a typical gaming group you probably play once per week for 4 hours per session. Given the lethality of TFT, I suspect a would rarely involve you personally defeating 5-10 moderately competent foes per session, and succeeding at a few 4-die rolls (5-die rolls are unusual enough, and easy enough to fail that I won't worry about them). So, that sounds to me like you are earning roughly 300 EXP per week (and in my experience that would be a pretty generous haul). At that rate it will take a year to reach 48 attribute points, two years to reach 52 and 6 years to reach 60.

I know a few people who really like TFT. I don't personally know any who are playing several hours every week over years (I suppose I did in the mid 80's, but I don't know anyone who's played it so intensely and continuously since). In any event, it is a major time investment to bring a character into the 50-60 point range.

For reference, a few NPC's from Tollenkar's Lair: Cpt. Littlejohn (of the Bravo's) has 52 points. Tollenkar has 60. Tarve has 52. Ranulf 50. So, the world, at least as presented in the published books, is a dangerous place where you are going to run into people a lot like you but with 50 or more character points, and some of them are going to try to kill you.

Anyway, I don't see the problem. It is possible to have a character who is on the same rank of power as the tougher NPC's you run across, but it takes years to get there, and won't be easy to reach without getting killed off through some twist of fate. It strikes me as pretty similar to the experience of playing pre-4th edition D&D (when you don't cheat!) and many other games.

I've already had precisely this same debate with either you or someone else on this forum. There's no point in my rehashing this yet again, in a second thread.

[larsdangly]

That's fine; I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. But you probably shouldn't expect anyone to remember what you wrote on another thread a couple of weeks ago - I can hardly remember what I said myself earlier today!

[JLV]

Nah, it's just that rehashing several pages of this stuff again a couple of weeks later doesn't strike me as a "high pay-off" proposition. I don't want to bore people to death by going over the same ground over and over again!

Besides, the only audience that really counts for things like this is Steve -- and he's been paying attention to these fora, and has read this argument probably many times by now! ;-)