04-02-2016, 02:19 PM | #1 |
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Alternate Forms as Alternate Abilities
Quite a few powers systems are modelled on the idea of Alternate Abilities. Sorcery certainly works that way, and Divine Powers seems to, at least when it comes to "Learned Prayers."
If you are using one of these systems, how does Alternate Forms work? It seems plausible that some form of shapeshifting might be allowed as an alternate ability, in the sense that while you are using your shapeshifting abilities, you cannot use your other powers... but losing access to your other abilities could well be one element of your shapeshifting (ie, if you turn into a wolf and a wolf can't throw fireballs, you can't throw fireballs. That's part and parcel of what an alternate form is). Are there any canonical examples of these power frameworks using Alternate Forms? How do they handle them? Are they full price or 1/5, or is there a better way to handle something like that? (Specifically, I'm tinkering with the idea of an angelic/avatar state bestowed by divine powers. That, like a "Super Saiyan" form or any "super-powered" form, seems to be an alternate power, and it seems a plausible Divine power, but what would the cost of a learned prayer be? The full alternate form cost, or 1/5, or I am looking at it the wrong way?)
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04-02-2016, 03:12 PM | #2 |
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Re: Alternate Forms as Alternate Abilities
Alternate Form is already kind of an Alternate Ability as it gives a -10% discount for the first form and all subsequent forms cost only 15 points base.
Personal traits carry over, so you would keep non-species magics. The shapeshifting power is only active when changing. It's not an ongoing ability. Negating it would lock you in your current form. I don't have Divine Powers, so I can't suggest anything about that.
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04-02-2016, 03:22 PM | #3 | |
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Re: Alternate Forms as Alternate Abilities
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I agree with you on alternate forms being a form of alternate abilities. Perhaps it's better to just apply say "Look, you're an angel, here you go" and apply the template. The fact that you can't use any other powers is inherent in the fact that it's an alternate ability. Say being an angel gives you +10 ST, winged flight, homogenous, appearance (transcendant) and terror. So you get those (at 1/5 the cost), no muss no fuss. When you call upon that learned prayer, you just get those traits, and boom, you're good. But then how do you handle things like maximum duration, and perhaps the ability to force someone out of it (like, if you step into a place where God's power is no longer relevant, your angelic template should go away. How is that costed in?), and adding disadvantages (vulnerabilities, specific behavior, etc). So, obviously, the simplest and easiest way to handle all of that is via Alternate Form: You get a 15 point alternate form, minus limitations like "Divine -10%", and your form can have +10 ST, winged flight, homogenous, appearance (transcendant), terror and, say, Honesty, Pacifism (cannot harm innocents), Code of Honor (Angelic), whatever, and you apply 90% of the cost. But then should this form be an alternate ability? If not, is it legal as a learned prayer (or a sorcerous ability) only at full cost rather than 1/5?
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04-02-2016, 04:08 PM | #4 |
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
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Re: Alternate Forms as Alternate Abilities
I'm working on (but have not solved) basically this kind of problem, along with a few other problems with Alternate Form.
Some thoughts though: If it's an Alternate Ability (ie a Learned Prayer), your entire Divine Favor probably goes away in the place where God Cannot Reach You; this means all parts of the AA go away, so you no longer have the Alternate Ability and ffft you're a non-angel again. Hope you weren't flying. Doesn't matter about reversion conditions. All your other DF powers go away too. Alternate Form and Shapeshifting basically have a Power Modifier baked into them; that's the requisite reversion conditions. I'm not really sure how legit it is to stack another PM on it. Minimum and Maximum Duration were specifically written for Alternate Form back in 3e (in GURPS Shapeshifters). The fact that during 4e things went a little weird and now they're hard to apply to AF but are available for other traits is dryly amusing to me. Sometimes I think the only way to deal with AF and whether it is Transitional or Switchable is as a ( 0%? ) switch, chosen at character creation, which has several consequences. If Transitional,
If Switchable
Many of these items are only relevant if you have extra limitations - a Power modifier, Costs Fatigue, Requires Recharge, Limited Uses, etc.
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04-02-2016, 04:23 PM | #5 |
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Re: Alternate Forms as Alternate Abilities
It's not just K/O or dead. It's also during basic sleep which makes shifting to survive inclement conditions for long periods of time impossible.
Such as a hypothetic human-fish shifter trying to hide at the bottom of the ocean. Once he falls asleep, he drowns. I don't think removing that feature is a zero point change.
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04-02-2016, 04:26 PM | #6 |
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Re: Alternate Forms as Alternate Abilities
Maximum duration can be kludged by including Dependency: Natural Form Fatigue Damage Only on the alternate forms.
Minimum Duration could be a cool down Limitation on the base 15.
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04-02-2016, 04:26 PM | #7 | |
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Re: Alternate Forms as Alternate Abilities
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04-02-2016, 04:29 PM | #8 |
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Re: Alternate Forms as Alternate Abilities
I was responding to Bruno's suggestion of two versions both of equal value.
I know the 4th ed. R.A.W. enhancement. It rarely fits most of my ideas of shapeshifters, but I do know of it.
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04-02-2016, 04:33 PM | #9 | |
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Re: Alternate Forms as Alternate Abilities
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As for the rest, I suppose the question comes down to whether or not you can apply blanket modifiers (whatever we choose to apply) to a meta-trait, or if the best way to apply a meta-trait is via Alternate Form (If you can turn into a Fire Elemental via Divine Powers or Sorcery, is it best to just have Body of Fire as the trait itself, or to have it as an alternate form, or some crazy affliction that only affects you?).
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04-04-2016, 03:31 PM | #10 | |
Join Date: Dec 2012
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Re: Alternate Forms as Alternate Abilities
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Also why I use a more-or-less 'handwave them' approach in Five Earths: They could have stats, but mortals cannot comprehend them, nor compare the power level of God X to Goddess Y in a meaningful fashion, and the gods of separate pantheons prefer not to directly conflict with each other, anyway.
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