Using "Either/Or" limitations

[PK]

Originally Posted by Walrus

What about Alternative Disadvantages?

The example is a creature with snail-like eyes on antennae. If it doesn't have 360 degree vision, it's more like Tunnel Vision (retracted eyes) with alternative Easy to Hit Eyes (eyes on antennae).

How would you build such disadvantages?

Disadvantage A + Reciprocal Advantage A (Temporary Disadvantage B).

Tunnel Vision [-30] + No Tunnel Vision (Temporary Disadvantage, Easy to Hit Eyes, -5%) [29] = -1 point. A quirk, which is about right considering that one of these is already just a -5-point disadvantage and you're basically asking for the ability to switch around your disadvantages so you can choose the one that inconveniences you the least.

BTW, a quick formula for this, as long as both disads are no worse than -80 points, is (A*B)*(-0.01). For the example above, (-30*-5)*(-0.01) = (150)*(-0.01) = -1.5, which rounds up to -1.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Hellboy

You could get that with leveled/variable limitations though, like Costs Fatigue 11 (B111) or Resistible HT+11 (B115) or Takes Extra Time 9 (same).

Power Ups 8 page 11's Backlash also unlocks a lot of options via reversed Affliction enhancements, especially if you can't resist them. Incapacitation: Unconsciousness would be -200% for example, and Attribute Penalty could give you unlimited amounts if you took a big enough hit. -10 DX would be -100%

PU8p12's Costs Hit Points 9 would give -90%

I'm not sure why you're listing all of the ways that a limitation can exceed -80%, because all of that is immaterial. In all cases, if either limitation exceeds -80%, you reduce it to -80%. Period.

How to deal with this is also a problem when it comes to more than just 2 limitations. Like "(A and B) or (C)". For small amounts I'd probably treat the summed limitations as a single limit, but that also creates more ways to reach past 80%.

Not really; you'd just multiply all three together. Though frankly, at that point I'd probably just call it a special effect or, at worse, a quirk. "I have three limitations, but only the least-bad one applies in every situation" is hardly a limitation at all unless all of them are pretty massive.

[Vilobion]

Originally Posted by PK

I'm not sure why you're listing all of the ways that a limitation can exceed -80%, because all of that is immaterial. In all cases, if either limitation exceeds -80%, you reduce it to -80%. Period.

That 80% limit is for the final cost of a trait, so stacking a -100% limitation on something with a 300% cosmic enhancement is still a net +200%, correct?

[PK]

Originally Posted by Vilobion

That 80% limit is for the final cost of a trait, so stacking a -100% limitation on something with a 300% cosmic enhancement is still a net +200%, correct?

Yes, but that's not what's being discussed here. We're talking about either/or limitations.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by PK

<snip>
Let's take the Jumper example. Since it's 100 points, it makes the percentages really easy to follow. Jumper (Naked, -30%) costs 70 points. Not arriving naked every time is effective a +30% enhancement (cancelling out the limitation).
<snip>

This has been bothering me for a long time and this is my first chance to post about it while the matter is somewhat current.

Reversing -30% to +30% is mathematically simple, but I don't think it yields the proper results.

If arriving naked every time is a -30% limitation on a 100 point advantage, it yields a 70 point advantage. Therefore, its value as an enhancement should yield the opposite result. That is, if arriving naked every time was the norm for a 70 point advantage, then not arriving naked as an enhancement should yield a 100 point advantage where the character doesn't arrive naked.

If we follow this as a +30% enhancement, we get (70 x 130% = 80 + 21 =) 91 points, rather than 100 points.

To go to 100 points from 70 points requires that the enhancement be valued as +42.86% or +43%. It's not particularly neat, but you could round it off to +40% or +45% if you don't mind being out about 2 points either side of 100.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

This has been bothering me for a long time and this is my first chance to post about it while the matter is somewhat current.

Reversing -30% to +30% is mathematically simple, but I don't think it yields the proper results.

It does when you are adding up enhancements and limitations. Remember that you always add together all enhancement and limitation values before applying them as a modifier (unless you are using the multiplicative modifiers option on Powers p.102).