Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-22-2018, 08:55 PM   #11
Prince Charon
 
Prince Charon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Default Re: Rifle Butt and Pistol Whipping attacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Colonel View Post
Also, holding a firearm by the naughty end and hitting someone with it greatly increases the chance of becoming both perpetrator and casualty of a negligent discharge.
Of course, at the time that using a gun as a blunt weapon was invented, most firearms were single-shot weapons, and you used it as a club because it had already been discharged. This is one of the reasons that the butt-ends of many 16th/17th-century pistols had knobs or other bulges.
__________________
Warning, I have the Distractible and Imaginative quirks in real life.

"The more corrupt a government, the more it legislates."
-- Tacitus

Five Earths, All in a Row. Updated 12/17/2022: Apocrypha: Bridges out of Time, Part I has been posted.

Last edited by Prince Charon; 10-22-2018 at 09:55 PM.
Prince Charon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2018, 12:49 AM   #12
Rupert
 
Rupert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wellington, NZ
Default Re: Rifle Butt and Pistol Whipping attacks

Note that HT gives the normal use of a rifle to smash people with the butt as using the Staff skill. I would allow sw+1 swung attacks as well (that's the same same as a Jo stick, which seems fair - rifles are heavier, but not as wieldy which should balance out). I would not give rifles the +2 to parry that staves normally get - while not generally badly balanced, they are not nearly as well balanced as staves.

As for using a rifle like a big mace, with a modern rifle I really wouldn't do it unless it was jammed and had done so very early in the fight. Aside from potential damage to the rifle, gripping the barrel after you've a magazine or more through it will result in some really nasty burns on your hands, and probably enough pain that you'll drop the rifle. Better to swing the barrel into the other guy's face, staff-style.
__________________
Rupert Boleyn

"A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history."
Rupert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2018, 06:19 AM   #13
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: Rifle Butt and Pistol Whipping attacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
GURPS High-Tech, p. 93 gives full rules for punching someone with a pistol in your hand, for thrust-based damage, or swinging a larger pistol as a mace, for swing-based damage. The latter is generally only an option for a pistol that's built for it.

GURPS High-Tech, p. 198 gives full rules for striking end-on for thrust-based damage and swinging a long arm for swing-based damage. Both are options, though the latter is unwise with a gun you plan to shoot later, unless it was built for clubbing.
Given that the barrels of guns are small and slippery and not built for a comfortable grip like the handles, is it easier to disarm someone wielding a gun by the barrel like this?

Or would you even need to disarm them at all to be able to grapple the weapon and get your hand around the intended handle and start pulling the trigger to try and shoot them?
Plane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2018, 06:31 AM   #14
The Colonel
 
The Colonel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Default Re: Rifle Butt and Pistol Whipping attacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince Charon View Post
Of course, at the time that using a gun as a blunt weapon was invented, most firearms were single-shot weapons, and you used it as a club because it had already been discharged. This is one of the reasons that the butt-ends of many 16th/17th-century pistols had knobs or other bulges.
That is true, it's just that the technique hasn't aged well.
The Colonel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2018, 07:17 AM   #15
ericthered
Hero of Democracy
 
ericthered's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: far from the ocean
Default Re: Rifle Butt and Pistol Whipping attacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by weby View Post
Fixing a bayonet takes longer. But just drawing your entrenchment tool and using it is likely a better option anyway than trying to use your rifle as a club. (or just use your knife as a knife and not fasten it to the rifle).

If you're going to use your gun as a melee weapon, the bayonet is the best choice for open battlefield conditions. In the 1700's, battle's were decided by the charge of the bayonet more often than by firepower. It reaches farther than using your gun as a club, it does more damage, and it allows better parrying.

The drawback of the bayonet is that its long. In WWI (which is where the entrenching tool rose to prominence), melee combat tended to happen in bunkers, foxholes, and trenches, which are extremely tight quarters. Effective weapons for this type of fighting tend to be short and brutal. In this case, smashing someone with your riffle can be a better option than stabbing with the bayonet, because of space concerns. I've always understood this to be holding the gun with widely spaced hands and hitting your foe with whatever part is convenient, not swinging like a club or a baseball bat, which is slow and requires room.
__________________
Be helpful, not pedantic

Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog

Check out the PbP forum! If you don't see a game you'd like, ask me about making one!
ericthered is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2018, 07:45 AM   #16
jason taylor
 
jason taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
Default Re: Rifle Butt and Pistol Whipping attacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
If you're going to use your gun as a melee weapon, the bayonet is the best choice for open battlefield conditions. In the 1700's, battle's were decided by the charge of the bayonet more often than by firepower. It reaches farther than using your gun as a club, it does more damage, and it allows better parrying.

The drawback of the bayonet is that its long. In WWI (which is where the entrenching tool rose to prominence), melee combat tended to happen in bunkers, foxholes, and trenches, which are extremely tight quarters. Effective weapons for this type of fighting tend to be short and brutal. In this case, smashing someone with your riffle can be a better option than stabbing with the bayonet, because of space concerns. I've always understood this to be holding the gun with widely spaced hands and hitting your foe with whatever part is convenient, not swinging like a club or a baseball bat, which is slow and requires room.
Actually that is a misnomer. Very few casualties were generated by bayonets. One side usually broke. So saying that the charge of the bayonet was the decider merely means it was the best bluff. And most bayonet charges were preceded by fire in any event.
__________________
"The navy could probably win a war without coffee but would prefer not to try"-Samuel Eliot Morrison
jason taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2018, 07:48 AM   #17
jason taylor
 
jason taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Portland, Oregon
Default Re: Rifle Butt and Pistol Whipping attacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
Note that HT gives the normal use of a rifle to smash people with the butt as using the Staff skill. I would allow sw+1 swung attacks as well (that's the same same as a Jo stick, which seems fair - rifles are heavier, but not as wieldy which should balance out). I would not give rifles the +2 to parry that staves normally get - while not generally badly balanced, they are not nearly as well balanced as staves.

As for using a rifle like a big mace, with a modern rifle I really wouldn't do it unless it was jammed and had done so very early in the fight. Aside from potential damage to the rifle, gripping the barrel after you've a magazine or more through it will result in some really nasty burns on your hands, and probably enough pain that you'll drop the rifle. Better to swing the barrel into the other guy's face, staff-style.
How much banging can a modern rifle take? Can they be used as mauls like they do in movies? I mean theoretically, not just "it's not a good idea." Of course by now they use fireaxes and tactical tomahawks for doorbusting I would imagine.
__________________
"The navy could probably win a war without coffee but would prefer not to try"-Samuel Eliot Morrison
jason taylor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2018, 08:07 AM   #18
ericthered
Hero of Democracy
 
ericthered's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: far from the ocean
Default Re: Rifle Butt and Pistol Whipping attacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason taylor View Post
Actually that is a misnomer. Very few casualties were generated by bayonets. One side usually broke. So saying that the charge of the bayonet was the decider merely means it was the best bluff. And most bayonet charges were preceded by fire in any event.

Yes and No. A lot of bayonet charges ended in one side or the other yielding. That's just the way battles work. Its all about breaking the other side. And yes, the volley to soften up the enemy before hand was critical. It opened up gaps in their ranks, disrupted their formation, and gave them a taste of blood before the charge came. But the battle was won by the charge, and if you could have fended it off with short shovels, swords, or axes, you bet someone would have figured that out and used it.



But the idea that spear (and later bayonet) formations never stood and fought each other is speculation about a very poorly understood aspect of warfare at best and an unsupported myth at worst. the 1700's and 1800's were, contrary to popular belief, a great time of military innovation. Militaries played around with technology and tactics, and if they'd found a better weapon than the bayonet, you'd bet that they'd use it. A weapon does not dominate the battlefield for 200 years because it is ineffective.



Firepower is harder to run away from, harder to defend from, and it tends not to produce decisive imbalances that prompt routes. So I can see why some casualty numbers would give more firearm causalities than bayonet. But we're comparing the bayonet to other melee weapons, not to smoothbore muskets.
__________________
Be helpful, not pedantic

Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog

Check out the PbP forum! If you don't see a game you'd like, ask me about making one!
ericthered is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2018, 08:15 AM   #19
johndallman
Night Watchman
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
Default Re: Rifle Butt and Pistol Whipping attacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Or would you even need to disarm them at all to be able to grapple the weapon and get your hand around the intended handle and start pulling the trigger to try and shoot them?
If someone has started hitting you with a gun that's still loaded and in a fireable state, they're an idiot who deserves to be shot.
johndallman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2018, 09:26 AM   #20
weby
 
weby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Default Re: Rifle Butt and Pistol Whipping attacks

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
If someone has started hitting you with a gun that's still loaded and in a fireable state, they're an idiot who deserves to be shot.
Except if you use a Glove Pistol (HT 199) then you are suppoed to be hitting them with the leaded and ready to fire weapon. :)

But indeed for all normal weapons, if the weapon is usable and ready to fire, firing it is the way to go..
__________________
--
GURPS spaceship unofficial errata and thoughts: https://gsuc.roto.nu/
weby is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
on target, pistol whip, pyramid, rifle butt

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.