Post-roll extra effort

[Cayenne]

I'm going to be running a game where people will be able to buy the ability to add in extra effort AFTER the roll to succeed is made, even in combat. What would be a fair point cost for this? This would let people grab that Feverish Defense when they REALLY need it, take that Mighty Blow when they've actually hit, perform a Flurry when the difference in penalty would turn a miss into a hit, or Heroic Charge if you would have missed with that Wild Swing. It would also let someone use extra effort out of combat only when they would have needed it.

It wouldn't change the roll the character makes, just the number they're rolling against. An 18 is still going to fail no matter what, but it could potentially turn a critical failure into a normal failure, or a normal success into a critical success.

How much should something like this cost?

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by Cayenne

I'm going to be running a game where people will be able to buy the ability to add in extra effort AFTER the roll to succeed is made, even in combat. What would be a fair point cost for this? This would let people grab that Feverish Defense when they REALLY need it, take that Mighty Blow when they've actually hit, perform a Flurry when the difference in penalty would turn a miss into a hit, or Heroic Charge if you would have missed with that Wild Swing. It would also let someone use extra effort out of combat only when they would have needed it.

It wouldn't change the roll the character makes, just the number they're rolling against. An 18 is still going to fail no matter what, but it could potentially turn a critical failure into a normal failure, or a normal success into a critical success.

How much should something like this cost?

Campaign option (thereby free, to the point of not even being written down on the sheet), or not at all.

Charging the players for an advantage that /all/ the players will have is (from my perspective) silly. Its' a requirement to play the game; thereby the players are required to purchase it in order for their character

[Cayenne]

It is less useful than Super Luck, as it cannot mitigate or even change the result of a roll. It's even less useful than normal Luck for the same reason. If the player happens to have rolled within the range it can affect, then it helps. In particular, if the roll is ALREADY a 16 or less, it's useless for that. I don't see how you're getting such a massive point cost for it. I'd like to get a fair cost, not a ridiculous cost.

Are you REALLY suggesting that it's worth more than 115 levels of Super Luck?

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by Cayenne

It is less useful than Super Luck, as it cannot mitigate or even change the result of a roll. It's even less useful than normal Luck for the same reason. If the player happens to have rolled within the range it can affect, then it helps. In particular, if the roll is ALREADY a 16 or less, it's useless for that. I don't see how you're getting such a massive point cost for it. I'd like to get a fair cost, not a ridiculous cost.

Are you REALLY suggesting that it's worth more than 115 levels of Super Luck?

For the ability to arbitrarily modify an already made dice roll potentially every time the dice are rolled? I'm seriously arguing that it should be a campaign option rather than a power; and that if you choose not to make it a campaign option then a heavily modified Luck is the most applicable advantage.

I provided an example of how I would price such a power. If you feel that Super-Luck is a more applicable advantage, well, modify that then? Do remember they can do it as a free action and that it should be leveled and priced as such. (Meaning it has to be usable more than once per second, every second of the game.)

[Cayenne]

Let's go over this again. You're NOT modifying the die roll, just the number that's being rolled against. At best (Feverish Defense) it's like getting a +2 to the defense you're rolling against. An 18 will still fail, as will a 17. With Mighty Blow, it's like being a little stronger. With Flurry, it's negating part of a penalty, and with Heroic Charge it's possibly removing a 9-or-less cap on your skill roll if you need it. It doesn't modify what you roll at all!

For non-combat uses of Extra Effort it would allow you to apply the extra effort after finding out if it would have failed without it. So jumping that chasm and missing by an inch could be turned into a successful jump with Extra Effort.

Not only is Super Luck not more applicable, it can't even DO that!

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by Cayenne

Let's go over this again. You're NOT modifying the die roll, just the number that's being rolled against. At best (Feverish Defense) it's like getting a +2 to the defense you're rolling against. An 18 will still fail, as will a 17. With Mighty Blow, it's like being a little stronger. With Flurry, it's negating part of a penalty, and with Heroic Charge it's possibly removing a 9-or-less cap on your skill roll if you need it. It doesn't modify what you roll at all!

For non-combat uses of Extra Effort it would allow you to apply the extra effort after finding out if it would have failed without it. So jumping that chasm and missing by an inch could be turned into a successful jump with Extra Effort.

Not only is Super Luck not more applicable, it can't even DO that!

With Cosmic, you can do most anything. :)

More seriously, you are still wanting to modify the results of a dice roll after the dice have been rolled. Modifying the dice roll result vs modifying the number the dice are being rolled against is the same thing. The result of the roll is modified.

The only advantages I'm aware of that modify the results of a dice roll after the dice roll has already been made (or, to use the opposite but identical: that modify the number being rolled against after the roll has already been made) ... is Luck and related.

Since this can be done (theoretically) on any relevant dice roll, then such modification must be usable as often as any relevant dice roll is possible.

Use (Cosmic: Reliable affects number rolled against, +50%) and (Reliable, Variable, +X, +X%) and (Costs Fatigue, Variable, +X, -X%) and (Advantage only modifies relevant dice rolls, -X%) on a Luck or Luck-related advantage usable on a faster-than-per-second basis ...

And it modifies the results in the fashion you have indicated is desirable.

[Cayenne]

And how exactly does this help with the 'being stronger' aspect that Mighty Blows gives? Or the after-the-fact extra strength in an athletics-type roll?

I was hoping for a more serious attempt. My best version so far is a combination of Reflexive advantages, stats, and skill bonuses. Your attempt is like saying 'don't do that', and is not exactly helpful.

My gut feeling is that it really isn't all that powerful, probably less than Weapon Master or Trained By A Master. Sure, it's after the fact, but there are pretty strict limits to it. The most powerful part is the defense bonus, and even that is only +2 to your defense vs. a single attack. If your defense is a 16, it's useless since having a defense of 18 doesn't make an 18 or a 17 succeed, but if your defense is an 8 then it could be pretty helpful. The only 'bad' part is the after-the-fact-ness of it, and there are in-world reasons for it to exist.

[Cayenne]

As a further thought, remember that the normal extra effort abilities are all 0-point features of being a character. The only part that I'm trying to cost out is the ability to use them post-roll instead of pre-roll.

[Sunrunners_Fire]

Originally Posted by Cayenne

And how exactly does this help with the 'being stronger' aspect that Mighty Blows gives? Or the after-the-fact extra strength in an athletics-type roll?

I was hoping for a more serious attempt. My best version so far is a combination of Reflexive advantages, stats, and skill bonuses. Your attempt is like saying 'don't do that', and is not exactly helpful.

I am attempting to build a power that allows you to make the modifications you wish done. I'm sorry that you feel I'm not acting in good faith. It is not my place to tell you what to do with your games. Nor am I in a position (nor would I want to be) to enforce such a thing. :)

My gut feeling is that it really isn't all that powerful, probably less than Weapon Master or Trained By A Master. Sure, it's after the fact, but there are pretty strict limits to it. The most powerful part is the defense bonus, and even that is only +2 to your defense vs. a single attack. If your defense is a 16, it's useless since having a defense of 18 doesn't make an 18 or a 17 succeed, but if your defense is an 8 then it could be pretty helpful. The only 'bad' part is the after-the-fact-ness of it, and there are in-world reasons for it to exist.

Ok. So let me make sure I'm understanding correctly. You do not want the power described to be built using the advantages, enhancements and limitations published. You want us to arbitrarily assign (create) an advantage for an arbitrary point cost based on what we feel is appropriate rather than what the rules allow us to build?

Ok. Can do.

It's effectively an usual background. A package of leveled extra option perks. Say, 10 points worth. (... as there are probably 10ish different checks being affected.) Maybe 25? (... to cover most every possible situation.) Maybe more? Assign a cost of 1/perk describing each 'extra effort' situation you expect to allow.

It enables a set of campaign options as 0-point features that allow for extra effort to be used after the check result has been determined in a limited set of circumstances/situations/results. Does this work better for you?

It is arbitrary in both effect and cost even while maintaining a semblance of being built from pre-existing advantages -- perks in this case -- and requires the permission of the GM to assign these features as a campaign option buyable on a case-by-case basis rather than being automatically enabled like most campaign options.

Originally Posted by Cayenne

As a further thought, remember that the normal extra effort abilities are all 0-point features of being a character. The only part that I'm trying to cost out is the ability to use them post-roll instead of pre-roll.

And I would argue that any such ability should also be a 0-point feature enabled at the campaign level as the most effective implementation. Charging points for something that /every/ character /must/ have seems very silly to me. Your game though.

[Cayenne]

I never said that every character would have it, just that it's something that is required by the world. I'm not looking for an arbitrary cost, but instead a fair one. I'd put the upper limit on cost to be equivalent to outright buying all of the related effects and just having them 'on' all the time, which should cost considerably less than 500 points, and probably less than 200.

Given that everyone can use extra effort normally, what should the cost to use it after the roll is made be?