Ultratech Computer Implants

[Alonsua]

According to p. 215 the computer implant is a Tiny Computer, while by p. 216 it can work like a Puppeteer by TL9 and use Biopresence Software which is by p. 109 Complexity 7. By p. 22 the Tiny Computer is Complexity 3 by the same TL, which may be increased up to Complexity 5 with the customized Genius hardware.

How is this supposed to fit together? Can we use bigger computers as computer implants?

[AlexanderHowl]

No. You can run the biopresense software on another computer though and use radio communications to access the puppeteer implant until TL 10, when computer are advanced enough for Tiny Computers to have sufficient Complexity. In addition, the genre assumption with Cyperpunk though that computers and implants are a minimum of TL 10, even if the underlying TL of the setting is TL 8 or TL 9, so Tiny Computers can have Complexity 7 in a Cyberpunk setting.

If you want an AI to intelligently run a puppet, they honestly need Complexity 9 (which gives a volitional AI an IQ of 12). At Complexity 7, the AI is a dumb volitional AI that is barely useful for anything more complex than the cleaning aspects of janitorial work (and that only under the supervision of a human or a more advanced AI). Before TL 10, the puppeteer is likely a human, as they possess sufficient intelligence to actually make a difference. By TL 10, mainframe possess enough computing power to run AIs with enough intelligence to be useful for puppeteering.

[Celti]

According to pp. 2150-216, you get the equivalent of a Tiny Computer — plus whatever else you have paid points for. The Puppeteer has paid an extra hundred character points for enough extra co-processing hardware to also run biopresence software despite whatever their "main" computer is capable of.

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

No. You can run the biopresense software on another computer though and use radio communications to access the puppeteer implant until TL 10, when computer are advanced enough for Tiny Computers to have sufficient Complexity. In addition, the genre assumption with Cyperpunk though that computers and implants are a minimum of TL 10, even if the underlying TL of the setting is TL 8 or TL 9, so Tiny Computers can have Complexity 7 in a Cyberpunk setting.

If you want an AI to intelligently run a puppet, they honestly need Complexity 9 (which gives a volitional AI an IQ of 12). At Complexity 7, the AI is a dumb volitional AI that is barely useful for anything more complex than the cleaning aspects of janitorial work (and that only under the supervision of a human or a more advanced AI). Before TL 10, the puppeteer is likely a human, as they possess sufficient intelligence to actually make a difference. By TL 10, mainframe possess enough computing power to run AIs with enough intelligence to be useful for puppeteering.

How would this actually work? Lets say I have a character with a Tiny Computer Implant working at Complexity 5 and connected through radio to a Personal Computer working at Complexity 7 with Biopresence Software installed. Would this character be able to control any other character with a puppeteer implant through his own Tiny Computer Implant aslong as her personal computer is online?

[hal]

As I understand it from GURPS ULTRA-TECH, the Biopresence software requires the use of some form of communication from the primary computer to the slave implant. Further complicating things, is that the user of the software has to have their own DNI feeding them input from their link to the computer running the software or they can't telecontrol another body.

My read on this is that you can't use a tiny computer to handle this functionality. My reasoning? The DNI must connect to the computer running the software. Each implanted computer has its own DNI interface, rendering the need to have an actual DNI installed in order to use the implanted computer a moot point.

Which brings me to my next point of speculation:

Is it valid to have both an implant computer AND a DNI?

My off the cuff answer would be "yes, but not easily". Since you only have one consciousness - you can either use your DNI or the Implanted Computer interface - much as you can have a single keyboard and a single computer monitor hooked up to a switch box, and the switchbox being connected to two different computers at the same time. Only ONE will display at a given time.

Now for the other thing to consider...

What is to keep a person from having a DNI cable stretching from the computer installed in his gut, and the DNI interface that is connected directly to his nervous system? In theory? Why couldn't a person take a 5 lb computer, install it in their chest, include the +2 genius chip, and directly handle the needs of the Biopresence software?

Your mileage may vary - so take this with a grain of salt. To me, DNI (Direct Neural Interface) requires the same connections that an installed computer requires - an optic nerve pick up, an audio nerve connection, and possibly even a sensory connection for other sensory input (smell, taste, and touch). When I look up the information for Sensie players? Yup, you guessed it - it requires a DNI to work.

So, how you see it working depends on you. Also note? These are guidelines crafted by rules designers. They are largely "arbitrary" which means - that if you want to have a lesser version of the Biopresence software run on a lesser complexity level, you could just as easily state that for each 1 complexity level below that of 7, the user is penalized by -2 to any physical or sensory task done by the puppet.

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by hal

As I understand it from GURPS ULTRA-TECH, the Biopresence software requires the use of some form of communication from the primary computer to the slave implant. Further complicating things, is that the user of the software has to have their own DNI feeding them input from their link to the computer running the software or they can't telecontrol another body.

My read on this is that you can't use a tiny computer to handle this functionality. My reasoning? The DNI must connect to the computer running the software. Each implanted computer has its own DNI interface, rendering the need to have an actual DNI installed in order to use the implanted computer a moot point.

Which brings me to my next point of speculation:

Is it valid to have both an implant computer AND a DNI?

My off the cuff answer would be "yes, but not easily". Since you only have one consciousness - you can either use your DNI or the Implanted Computer interface - much as you can have a single keyboard and a single computer monitor hooked up to a switch box, and the switchbox being connected to two different computers at the same time. Only ONE will display at a given time.

Now for the other thing to consider...

What is to keep a person from having a DNI cable stretching from the computer installed in his gut, and the DNI interface that is connected directly to his nervous system? In theory? Why couldn't a person take a 5 lb computer, install it in their chest, include the +2 genius chip, and directly handle the needs of the Biopresence software?

Your mileage may vary - so take this with a grain of salt. To me, DNI (Direct Neural Interface) requires the same connections that an installed computer requires - an optic nerve pick up, an audio nerve connection, and possibly even a sensory connection for other sensory input (smell, taste, and touch). When I look up the information for Sensie players? Yup, you guessed it - it requires a DNI to work.

So, how you see it working depends on you. Also note? These are guidelines crafted by rules designers. They are largely "arbitrary" which means - that if you want to have a lesser version of the Biopresence software run on a lesser complexity level, you could just as easily state that for each 1 complexity level below that of 7, the user is penalized by -2 to any physical or sensory task done by the puppet.

So you need a Personal Computer with the Genius option to run the Biopresence software and a DNI or appropriate equipment if you do not like keyboards or colorful suits. I just had the hope to be able to perform some "mind control" avoiding strange cabling or apparent equipment... I guess she'll have to use a console or dress weirdly instead. It is not that bad. Would a Microframe/Genius+Printed on her own skin work in this case? Would a Personal Computer/Genius in a Payload (Flesh pockets) work? How odd would a garbage like those look? Would it need a DNI to be used, or how does printed computers run exactly?


Pd. Could the payloaded personal computer/microframe possibly run like a computer implant?

[weby]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

Would a Microframe/Genius+Printed on her own skin work in this case? Would a Personal Computer/Genius in a Payload (Flesh pockets) work? How odd would a garbage like those look? Would it need a DNI to be used, or how does printed computers run exactly?


Pd. Could the payloaded personal computer/microframe possibly run like a computer implant?

You cannot have a printed microframe on body, but could have personal computer due to the area requirement.

Flesh pocket microframe would require you to be quite strong(ST 15) as the compact microframe is still 20 lb and the maximum payload in flechpockets is payload 5

I do not see why a printed or fleshpocketed computer could not be built to interface like a implant computer. It would require the interface hardware and likely some remote node at the place where it interfaces with the central nervous system.Also likely it would not be standard off the shelf product so someone would need to do some invention rolls to make the thing work.

[hal]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

So you need a Personal Computer with the Genius option to run the Biopresence software and a DNI or appropriate equipment if you do not like keyboards or colorful suits. I just had the hope to be able to perform some "mind control" avoiding strange cabling or apparent equipment... I guess she'll have to use a console or dress weirdly instead. It is not that bad. Would a Microframe/Genius+Printed on her own skin work in this case? Would a Personal Computer/Genius in a Payload (Flesh pockets) work? How odd would a garbage like those look? Would it need a DNI to be used, or how does printed computers run exactly?


Pd. Could the payloaded personal computer/microframe possibly run like a computer implant?

Since I'm not certain what "effect" you're trying for - perhaps exploring the implications of the technology itself is more important...

What precisely goes into a puppet implant and a puppeteer's DNI interface using the Biopresence software?

We know that the puppet implant requires not only an interface to control the actions remotely, of the body it is implanted within, we also know it has to have a communications device that permits it to be linked to an outside user.

This linkage requires both a receiver to receive instructions from the puppet master, but also a transmitter so that the puppet master can experience what is going on real time or as close as it can possibly achieve to real time communications.

so think of it this way:

PI = Puppet Implant
RC = radio communicator
C = Computer running the Biopresence software
DNI = Direct Neural Interface present on the puppeteer's skull

PI <-----> RC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ RC <-----> C <----> DNI


the ~ represents the distance between the RC's communicating to each other.

In theory? THE PI and RC are the same unit (one and the same) inside some puppet meat body. THe RC and the C don't have to be the same unit, they just have to be able to communicate with each other. The link between the C and the DNI - can be as simple as an implanted computer link, or it can be a 6 foot long fiber optics cable connecting to the DNI in someone's head/wrist/chest etc (nothing says the DNI has to be connected to the brain case!).

Now, what are the implications of this set up?

1. If the puppet goes into a radio dead zone, it ceases to function properly and likely goes into a standby routine
2. If there should be any kind of disruption such as jamming or a solar storm, the puppet goes into standby mode
3. If the computer running the interface software in the form of Biopresence) ends, the puppet goes into standby mode
4. if the Puppeteer jacks out of the connection to the Biopresence softare/computer - the puppet goes into standby mode

What I didn't list above however, is that anyone monitoring for radio communications, is going to pick up the puppet's radio communications in a big way.

Have you seen the movies starring Gerald Butler in PLAYER? THAT is a perfect example of a functioning Puppet/Puppeteer arrangement (especially the one with the fat guy renting the young woman's body for social interaction). Or perhaps you've seen the movie with Bruce Willis titled Surrogate?

The ONLY way to have a puppet implant that doesn't include a radio transmitter, is if you remove the links from the implant to the software that is linked to the controlling individual (ie an implanted Artificial Intelligence).

TRANSHUMAN SPACE CLASSIC would be able to give you the details of bioshells (basically your puppet implant with a living body) or cybershell arrangements (controlling a robotic body directly).

So what effect are you trying for here?

[Alonsua]

Originally Posted by hal

Since I'm not certain what "effect" you're trying for - perhaps exploring the implications of the technology itself is more important...

What precisely goes into a puppet implant and a puppeteer's DNI interface using the Biopresence software?

We know that the puppet implant requires not only an interface to control the actions remotely, of the body it is implanted within, we also know it has to have a communications device that permits it to be linked to an outside user.

This linkage requires both a receiver to receive instructions from the puppet master, but also a transmitter so that the puppet master can experience what is going on real time or as close as it can possibly achieve to real time communications.

so think of it this way:

PI = Puppet Implant
RC = radio communicator
C = Computer running the Biopresence software
DNI = Direct Neural Interface present on the puppeteer's skull

PI <-----> RC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ RC <-----> C <----> DNI


the ~ represents the distance between the RC's communicating to each other.

In theory? THE PI and RC are the same unit (one and the same) inside some puppet meat body. THe RC and the C don't have to be the same unit, they just have to be able to communicate with each other. The link between the C and the DNI - can be as simple as an implanted computer link, or it can be a 6 foot long fiber optics cable connecting to the DNI in someone's head/wrist/chest etc (nothing says the DNI has to be connected to the brain case!).

Now, what are the implications of this set up?

1. If the puppet goes into a radio dead zone, it ceases to function properly and likely goes into a standby routine
2. If there should be any kind of disruption such as jamming or a solar storm, the puppet goes into standby mode
3. If the computer running the interface software in the form of Biopresence) ends, the puppet goes into standby mode
4. if the Puppeteer jacks out of the connection to the Biopresence softare/computer - the puppet goes into standby mode

What I didn't list above however, is that anyone monitoring for radio communications, is going to pick up the puppet's radio communications in a big way.

Have you seen the movies starring Gerald Butler in PLAYER? THAT is a perfect example of a functioning Puppet/Puppeteer arrangement (especially the one with the fat guy renting the young woman's body for social interaction). Or perhaps you've seen the movie with Bruce Willis titled Surrogate?

The ONLY way to have a puppet implant that doesn't include a radio transmitter, is if you remove the links from the implant to the software that is linked to the controlling individual (ie an implanted Artificial Intelligence).

TRANSHUMAN SPACE CLASSIC would be able to give you the details of bioshells (basically your puppet implant with a living body) or cybershell arrangements (controlling a robotic body directly).

So what effect are you trying for here?

Is not the movie known as GAMER instead of PLAYER?

The effect I am trying for here is to build a company worth at least 917.5 billion dollars which is able to reproduce the two effects that you have already mentioned and also controls a virtual world similar to that appeared in Ready Player One and commercializes cybernetic improvements, robots and artificial intelligences similar to David from the movie Prometheus.

[hal]

Originally Posted by Alonsua

Is not the movie known as GAMER instead of PLAYER?

The effect I am trying for here is to build a company worth at least 917.5 billion dollars which is able to reproduce the two effects that you have already mentioned and also controls a virtual world similar to that appeared in Ready Player One and commercializes cybernetic improvements, robots and artificial intelligences similar to David from the movie Prometheus.

Ahhh. Having seen neither of the movies quoted above (and yes, I meant Gamer - sorry) - I can't go with the visuals. I did read the book for Ready Player One if that counts.

One of the implications of DNI technology explored with Netrunning, is that the user of the DNI technology can be immersed within a reactive environment to the extent that you have artificial reality. The more complex the environment, the more computing power you're going to need in order to project such a fluid reality for the user.

A while back, there was a major discussion on "What real world analogies exist for complexity values of software today?" Not the title of the post per se, but if you do a search on "complexity" and my name, I think you'd eventually stumble upon that particular thread.

My problem with mapping real life to GURPS where computers are concerned is that there doesn't seem to be any guidelines for what complexity any given real world program is. For instance, what is the complexity of a Microsoft Office suite program? What is the complexity of a 3D ray tracing program? Those super computers that run weather simulations - what are their complexity values - and by implication, what is the complexity value of the weather simulation programs that can't be run within minutes, but take days? If you look at the rules regarding the running of software whose complexity is higher than that of the computer's ability, you will find that the time taken is longer by a given value. If you take 10 lesser complexity computers of say, complexity 6, combined and running in parallel, they can equal the complexity of 7 instead. That begs the question: "What happens if you took 100 supercomputers and ran those in parallel - do you get a complexity +2 rating?"

So, what does your fictional company require in order to produce a highly detailed reality capable of using bioshells as puppets, etc? That largely depends on your read of the rules and what you want to make available in your campaign world. The original WESTWORLD with Yul Brynner has robotic bodies that can appear for all intents and purposes, as ordinary people. If you were going to build them as devices per GURPS ROBOTS (modifying the rules a little to adapt the changes made with the computer complexity values from GURPS 4e) - then you could have a cost very similar to that found in GURPS VEHICLES for 3e (something that is sorely lacking in GURPS 4e to my regret). Alternatively, you could simply build the robots as characters and follow the rules in GURPS ULTRA-TECH for 4e.

Ultimately? This is your game world, and what you want in it and how much preparation time you want to use to set it up is entirely dependent upon you. When I had a player who likes GURPS ROBOTS and wanted to be the CEO of a robotics manufacturing firm - even wanted to have independent income that granted him a given amount of money representing royalties for a patented computer system engineering process and chip manufacturing - all that I asked him to do was build a few "doggie" robots that would serve as sentries used by megacorporation to help secure their perimeters. Call them guard dogs if you will...

As GM, I had enough work on my hands detailing other things that I figured he'd be willing to at least build a few prototype robots for use in the campaign. Net result? Nada - zippo, zilch, nothing. So, I sadly informed the player "no work, no rewards, campaign is dead." I know it sounds harsh, but the problem was - we were in a cyberpunk like campaign, with a twist. Instead of being the guy on the outside looking in, and looking to get ahead, the switch was that his character was on the inside looking out - trying to protect his family business. He wanted his own corporation, he wanted his own "toys" at a reduced price etc. What he wanted required the GM to build things whole cloth out of nothing.

I guess in a way, that is why "Sourcebooks" are worth the time and money required, because they save the GM time. They present ideas and structure that otherwise, the GM does not have the time or perhaps the creativity to build.

Now, coming here and asking for ideas, for help, and all that fun stuff, that's fine. ;) If you said "Hey Hal, can you build a GURPS ROBOT based robotic system for me and walk me through the process, I'd say, "Sure - what do you need?" But I wouldn't just create the BEST robot design, I'd also produce the CHEAPEST robotic design still able to get the job done. Why? Because if you build a robot that does the job, but someone else can produce a similar robot that costs 75% what it costs you to manufacture, they will undercut your prices and potentially drive you out of business. If the robot is unnecessary as far as expenses go, then the people who buy it, won't be those whose pay is struggling or even something like standard social status 0. If it costs a third of what a house costs, then the market size just shrunk in a big way.

In any event - email me privately if you want help with designs or what have you. Also remember this...

All of the complexity values assigned to computers and/or robots in GURPS 3e were predicated on the premise that complexity only increases at a rate of 1 per TL. Software that produced a given result at a given OTL (Old Tech level) at a given complexity, should be modified upwards to take into account the increased complexity growth rates and complexity values in GURPS 4e and the revamped 4e version of the TL (NTL for new Tech level). Like any set of rules conversions, some people aren't going to like it, while some are. As GM, the only people you have to please are yourself (first) and your players (second). The rest of us can say what we want - it won't matter.

;)