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Old 03-05-2018, 11:11 PM   #651
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Problems with Illusions in Adv. Wiz.

Hi all,
The Illusions in basic Wizard worked great. However, I found the Illusions in Advanced Wizard problematic. I didn't like that Illusions could be of anything.

There are a lot of special rules hedging Illusions:
– One hex demons are too tough so if you make an Illusion of a demon, a real one might attack you. (Why??? Why would they care? How can they get to our world, if they can't come normally?)
– Strong elementals are too powerful, so for weird reasons no one understands, you can't make illusions of them.
– Illusions are of ordinary fighters with regular attributes. BUT if the Illusion is of a tough fighter known to the victims, then it is like a tough fighter. BUT if half the victims know of that tough fighter, and half don't know him, then the behavior is undefined.
– An Illusion of a pit under someone generates an automatic, instant disbelief roll, but other Illusions don't generate these rolls.
– Illusion men can't fly, but if the enemy thinks it has a flight ring it can. Does that mean if the Illusion shouts “I have a flight ring!” it can fly? Wouldn't it be more believable to just fly, and let the opponents figure out that it has a flight ring?
– Illusions of winged wolves are legal, but 'totally imaginary' animals are not.
– Illusions of inanimate objects can't hurt you unless they are weapons, then they can.

If new TFT creates a half dozen new, really tough 1 hex figures, I expect that special illusion rules will have to be created for them as well.

I think the simple solution is this: Images can look like anything but Illusion can only be one of the following:
– The wizard duplicates him or herself.
– A standard creation spell. (NOT Invocation type spells, so no demons.)
– Standard magical obstacles. (Fires, Shadows, Magic Ropes, etc.)
– Standard weapons from the weapon list.

Illusions are a knot of force that does real damage.

This solves all the above problems and makes them logical.

I have added Phantasmals which are higher IQ, cost more fST and have severe limitations, BUT can be of anything. (For example, if you disbelieve a phantasmal, you disbelieve all damage it has done to anyone, and if you are killed by a phantasmal, (or it does something virtually impossible), you get a free disbelief roll. Even if you blow it you are not really dead, but you THINK you are, so you go into a coma. This makes phantasmals useful for tricking people, but less useful for fights.

Steve will probably not bother with two types of Illusions in the new TFT, but I recommend that basic Illusion is nerfed so it is simple and logical.

Comments welcome,
Warm regards, Rick.

Last edited by Rick_Smith; 03-05-2018 at 11:35 PM. Reason: Expanded Phantasmals a bit.
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Old 03-05-2018, 11:18 PM   #652
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Legal to user Hymenopterans in TFT? - Suggestion.

Hi all,
The hymenopterans in TFT mostly came from Chitin I, which Steve does not have the rights to. I do not know if the new TFT can use these creatures.

If it can not, I suggest a replacement.

Demon Hives. These are an ant like collection of demon spawn which build hives in hard stone. Abominations from a cruel dimension, they seek to expand into our world. Much like the old TFT hymenopterans in toughness, (for the smaller critters), the larger and more scary monsters have spells and weird abilities.

I would be willing to write a supplement for TFT about these guys if you want.

Comments welcome.
Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 03-06-2018, 03:23 AM   #653
Jim Kane
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Join Date: Mar 2018
Default Re: The Fantasy Trip

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
One hex demons are too tough so if you make an Illusion of a demon, a real one might attack you. (Why??? Why would they care? How can they get to our world, if they can't come normally?)
Hi Rick, Here's some food-for-thought:

To your 1st Question: The short answer is analogous to the situation where someone is playing around with a combination safe, with no intention of trying to actually open it, which by chance they dial-in correctly - yet unintentionally - and the contents therein spill-forth in an uncontrolled manner.

The same dynamic is at work with the dangers surrounding the creation of the illusion of Demon - the caster may accidentally dial-into the correct mental frequency and thought-form at the hypnotic/subconscious-level, and thereby unintentionally summon an actual Demon from The Abyss; and, directly to themselves on the Temporal Plane of Existence (Terra Firma).

After all, Magick is a process that occurs on the conscious and subconscious levels of the Magician's mind simultaneously; hence the key adage of Hermeticism: "As above, So below".

In fact, in his 1904 edition of: 'The Goetia of the Lemegeton' (aka: Clavicula Salomonis Regis) - being the Lesser-Key of the Magick of King Solomon, and a detailed Grimoire which describes the Demons in detial, and the actual ritual to summon the 72 Demons which King Solomon called-on, and kept trapped within a brass vessel; as described in 'The Book of Kings' of the The Holy Bible - the failed, yet infamous, ceremonial Magician, Aleister Crowley, wrote: "The Spirits of Solomon's brass vessel (exist from) as [sic] portions of the human-mind."

So Mote it Be.

As to your second question:

If by summoning a Demon "normally", do you mean through the process of Ceremonial Ritual; utilizing: the Pentagram, the Crystal Ball (Shew-stone), the Dark Mirror (Speculum Mirror), with Enocian Evocations and Invocations, et al. ?; if so, understand that there is no inherent and innate magical-power vested into those items and words - unless purposefully and magically "charged" by a magician, or a Cabal; as those devicess and words merely serve the magician as focus-aids with which the magician attunes his mental state.

Therefore, all those trappings are not needed at the highest levels of Magic.

At the highest levels, theoretically, manifestation is reduced to a: "Think it, Manifest it" instantaneous process. This is reflected accurately in TFT:AW, as the rules inform that as the wizard grows in mastery, he has to do less gesturing, requires less props, less incantations, less need of books and scrolls, etc. - See TFT:AW p. 8-9; under: GESTURES AND INCANTATIONS

And therefore, to ACCIDENTALLY manifest a REAL Demon, none of the actual ritual or the correct summoning spell need be invoked. It is enough to mentally dial-in the correct combination with THOUGHT - even subconsciously or unintentionally.

In other words, it is the mind of the magician that calls forth the Demon(s), and not the toys and trappings themselves. As the manifestation of all magic - be it a Missile, Thrown, Creation, or Summon Spell - ALL spring-forth from the MIND of the magician; hence, IQ defining the wizards level of magical-acuity in TFT terms.

Therefore, just as in the example of accidentally opening a combination safe while not trying to do so, so too can a wizard accidentally open a portal of entry and manifest a real Demon, while only meaning to create a counterfeit illusion.

HOWEVER, the Magic Circle, with the protective/containing Pentagram as draw on the floor, is the thing which keeps the Demonic-entity and the Spell Caster separated; and is VITAL to safe magical operations.

Without such precautions and protections - such as when casting the ILLUSION of a Demon - which then inadvertently "goes off" - there is no protection from, nor containment of, the mortal magician to master-over the now unleashed and unwanted murderous visitor.

As to your question of "WHY" the Demon wishes to destroy the Summoner?

Sardonically, I would answer: "Why not summon one for yourself, and simply ask it?"

I am sure you will gain some degree of illumination. ;-)

There is a great passage on Page 3 of 'Advanced Wizard', which states:

"Perhaps there are some wizards on Cidri who understand what magic really is; the rest of us are merely apprentices, using what we are taught. The magic in this game does have it's own internal logic; when you understand this, you will be a better wizard."

As the Gorgon taught the children: "As you believe so shall you do,... As you believe so shall you do,... As you believe so shall you do,..."


.

Last edited by Jim Kane; 03-07-2018 at 04:09 AM.
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Old 03-06-2018, 02:19 PM   #654
Bayarea
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Default Re: TFT dismissed because of Attribute Bloat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
Let's see. On a 5/16 job he gains an attribute on the average every 23 weeks, including a little for recovery from injuries. To get him to 30-30-30 would take about 1300 rolls and 25 years.

You'd have to be careful not to get promoted.
Per Errata, the max EP for a Job Roll is 1000 so it would take a lot longer than 25 years.
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Old 03-06-2018, 02:35 PM   #655
Bayarea
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Default Re: Advanced Wizard in new TFT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
Hi all,
I was actually fairly happy with Advanced Wizard. So most of my suggested changes are tweaks rather than big changes. Things I think could be improved on...

-- Missile spells are too powerful. Reduce their max damage somehow.



-- Recovery from Exhaustion seems to have been missed by a lot of people (who think that wizards power spells with ST damage and not fST). I would move this up to an earlier place in the book.

Comments are welcome!
Warm regards, Rick.
Rick I like the idea, and I believe it was yours, where the could only put a max of 3 or 4 fST in per turn on Missle Spells. As the wizard was working up to larger than 3 or 4 fST you could see the ball of energy forming in the Wizards hands, this gave incentive to get the nasty wizard before he built up his Wizards Wrath to take down whatever or whoever opposed him.

Also I think we are all in agreement that the rules need to be reorganized so all the things like combat rules, or magic creation rules are all the same place.
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Old 03-06-2018, 02:41 PM   #656
JLV
 
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Default Re: Legal to user Hymenopterans in TFT? - Suggestion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick_Smith View Post
Hi all,
The hymenopterans in TFT mostly came from Chitin I, which Steve does not have the rights to. I do not know if the new TFT can use these creatures.

If it can not, I suggest a replacement.

Demon Hives. These are an ant like collection of demon spawn which build hives in hard stone. Abominations from a cruel dimension, they seek to expand into our world. Much like the old TFT hymenopterans in toughness, (for the smaller critters), the larger and more scary monsters have spells and weird abilities.

I would be willing to write a supplement for TFT about these guys if you want.

Comments welcome.
Warm regards, Rick.
That seems like a worthwhile project to me; certainly I'd pay money to acquire it. It IS a pity about the Hymenopterans though. Still, perhaps Steve has his own ideas; and of note, he acquired the copyright to ITL in its entirety, and the Hymenopterans DO appear as part of that game (with stats completely different from what were used in Chitin I, for obvious reasons), so, perhaps arguably, they are really his own invention after all. Besides, if HT elected to sue over the concept, it would be relatively easy to prove that HIS original inspiration came from Jack Vance's story The Dragon Masters...

In short, Steve could be safe, even if he doesn't change a thing.
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Old 03-06-2018, 02:53 PM   #657
Bayarea
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Default Re: Legal to user Hymenopterans in TFT? - Suggestion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLV View Post
That seems like a worthwhile project to me; certainly I'd pay money to acquire it. It IS a pity about the Hymenopterans though. Still, perhaps Steve has his own ideas; and of note, he acquired the copyright to ITL in its entirety, and the Hymenopterans DO appear as part of that game (with stats completely different from what were used in Chitin I, for obvious reasons), so, perhaps arguably, they are really his own invention after all. Besides, if HT elected to sue over the concept, it would be relatively easy to prove that HIS original inspiration came from Jack Vance's story The Dragon Masters...

In short, Steve could be safe, even if he doesn't change a thing.
I think because it is in the original ITL, he has no worries at all. And for example he could create Hippogriffs (if he didn't already don't have my rules in front of me) and JK Rowling or whoever originally thought them up could not sue as he would have converted the stats just like D and D did or T &T did or Chaosium did.
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Old 03-06-2018, 02:59 PM   #658
JLV
 
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Default Re: Legal to user Hymenopterans in TFT? - Suggestion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayarea View Post
I think because it is in the original ITL, he has no worries at all. And for example he could create Hippogriffs (if he didn't already don't have my rules in front of me) and JK Rowling or whoever originally thought them up could not sue as he would have converted the stats just like D and D did or T &T did or Chaosium did.
Well, Hippogriffs have been around since the ancient Greeks, so there's that; but your point is well taken.
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Old 03-06-2018, 03:31 PM   #659
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Advanced Wizard in new TFT. --> Missile spells.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayarea View Post
Rick I like the idea, and I believe it was yours, where the could only put a max of 3 or 4 fST in per turn on Missle Spells. As the wizard was working up to larger than 3 or 4 fST you could see the ball of energy forming in the Wizards hands, this gave incentive to get the nasty wizard before he built up his Wizards Wrath to take down whatever or whoever opposed him. ...
Hi Bayarea, everyone.
Yes that was my suggestion. I've been polishing TFT for 35 years, so I've tried several ways of handling big missile spells. (I ended up with the most dramatic one.) But Steve will do what he wants. I was mostly reminding him that this problem could use some thought. As long as it is handled in some way I'm happy.

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 03-06-2018, 03:39 PM   #660
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Re: Legal to user Hymenopterans in TFT? - Suggestion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLV View Post
That seems like a worthwhile project to me; certainly I'd pay money to acquire it. It IS a pity about the Hymenopterans though. ...

In short, Steve could be safe, even if he doesn't change a thing.
Hi JLV, everyone.
Thanks for the kind words. I agree, but in my experience, many companies would rather just avoid the whole problem, and create something new, rather than risk a lawsuit. Even if they believe that they have a very good chance of winning.

In the USA the judges almost never punish people who bring frivolous lawsuits, by forcing them to pay for the other side's court costs. Which means that there is always lots of work generated for those judges.

I think that the demon hive idea could make a sweet little supplement. A good number of counters, interesting creatures and more tactical possibilities than given by the current Hymenopterans. People who like the monsters might buy 2 or 3 copies in order to get LOTS of counters.

By the way, "The Dragon Lords" by Jack Vance was a really fun read! After that book, I kept my eye open for him, and found his Dying Earth series, Showboat World, and lot of other great stories.

Warm regards, Rick

Last edited by Rick_Smith; 03-06-2018 at 10:25 PM. Reason: Added comment on Jack Vance.
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