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Old 01-28-2014, 08:14 AM   #21
Icelander
 
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Default Re: [TG] Innate Attack Enchancement: Inflicts CPs?

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Originally Posted by chandley View Post
Id have built a "grabbing striker" as an extra arm layered with Striker (Limb) if you want it to get the "can parry and be parried like its a weapon, not an arm" bit.
But that doesn't, canonically, allow it to grapple and cause damage in the same attack, the way a bite can. Would you allow this at no extra points?

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Originally Posted by chandley View Post
That gives it grip ST equal to 1 arm. If it needs more ST cause its a big fiddler crab like claw, that is just Limb Grip ST (TG p.28), probably add Ham Fisted.
I'm leaning toward the opinion that this way is best for Pincers, yes. The consequence is that Strikers, in general, have Grip ST x=0.5 if someone grapples them and the creature wants to Break Free or use wrestling moves off the mutual grapple.
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Old 01-28-2014, 08:22 AM   #22
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Default Re: [TG] Innate Attack Enchancement: Inflicts CPs?

I think the Extra Mouth and Extra Arm ideas work and set a good cost.
Extra Mouth for an actual bite, feels the cleanest.
Extra Arm with Striker and Linked work too and I think fits RAW.
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Old 01-28-2014, 08:34 AM   #23
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Default Re: [TG] Innate Attack Enchancement: Inflicts CPs?

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
I think the Extra Mouth and Extra Arm ideas work and set a good cost.
Extra Mouth for an actual bite, feels the cleanest.
Extra Arm with Striker and Linked work too and I think fits RAW.
Extra Arm (Linked +10%) [11) + Striker, Cutting (Linked +10%, Limb -20%) [7] = 18 character points for a Pincer?

On the other hand, that sort of Pincer would be able to do anything that a hand can do. I just want it to be able to grapple, like a limb with No Fine Manipulators and Sharp Claws or Talon.

And how do I price this when the pincer replaces one of the regular arms?
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Old 01-28-2014, 08:37 AM   #24
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Default Re: [TG] Innate Attack Enchancement: Inflicts CPs?

The simplest, easiest way would be as an Enhancement, Grappling +??%, that simply inflicts CP equal to basic damage on a successful hit, just like a bite (optionally, use the same roll for CP and damage). For melee, this is simple, as it's just a bite. For ranged, you effectively get a high-signature (unless you Enhance it otherwise), automatically damaging, limited form of TK.

Optionally, there would be room for three different Enhancements - one which can only inflict CP (eyeball at +0%), one which inflicts damage and CP (+20%?), and finally one where the user can choose any combination - inflict only damage, inflict only CP, or inflict both (+40%?). The Enhancements should probably only be available for Crushing, Cutting, and (optionally) Impaling attacks.
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Old 01-28-2014, 08:49 AM   #25
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Default Re: [TG] Innate Attack Enchancement: Inflicts CPs?

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
But that doesn't, canonically, allow it to grapple and cause damage in the same attack, the way a bite can. Would you allow this at no extra points?
I like your Extra Arm + Striker (Cutting, Limb). You dont need linked, Limb -20% on the Striker covers that already. This buys you an arm with hand that you can grab with at 0.5xST, that will do cutting damage based on Thrust+1 when you do. Make the Striker (Cannot Parry -40%; Weak -50%; Limb -20%; Damaged on Parry by Weapon -30%) to represent a natural limb with some spikey bits on the grabby part. That costs you 12 points for the whole construction, and gives you another arm to latch on to stuff with that hurts when you do.

As for "being able to do anything a hand can do" there is no good solution to this. Ham Fisted/Bad Grip are creature wide, and Missing Digit/Missing Thumb appear to assume two hands (and would interfere with what you want, grappling). I believe it is meant to be a feature if you have _at least two arms with fully working hands_ and _more arms that may or may not be very useful as hands_.


Edit: I wouldnt be adverse to a new limitation to Extra Arm: No Fine Manipulators, -40%. You have an extra arm with a paw on it. It can grab, but isnt great for typing, picking locks, etc (see NFM). If _all_ your arms have this limitations, take NFM _instead_. Arm ST and Arm DX bought for _this arm_ can take the discount for NFM.

Edit2: Martial Arts proposes a -80% limitation to Bad Grip for applying it to one hand, under Claws p. 42. That too might be useful, though I am unsatisfied with it if you have two fully useable arms with hands and another arm without a hand.

Replacing one of two normal arms uses the normal rules for modifying your built in arms. In this case, it means just buying the Striker with the Limb limitation (along with whatever else). If you only have two arms, Bad Grip (one arm -80%) as per Martial Arts is the way to go.
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Old 01-28-2014, 08:59 AM   #26
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Default Re: [TG] Innate Attack Enchancement: Inflicts CPs?

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Extra Arm (Linked +10%) [11) + Striker, Cutting (Linked +10%, Limb -20%) [7] = 18 character points for a Pincer?

On the other hand, that sort of Pincer would be able to do anything that a hand can do. I just want it to be able to grapple, like a limb with No Fine Manipulators and Sharp Claws or Talon.

And how do I price this when the pincer replaces one of the regular arms?
Stretching 1: Single Limb (-40%), Temporary Disadvantage: No Fine Manipulators (One Arm Only) (-15%) [3] and a Cutting Striker: Accessibility Stretched Limb Only (-?%). Now you can make 1 arm into an SM+1, allowing it to Choke or Strangle the torso.
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Old 01-28-2014, 09:01 AM   #27
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Default Re: [TG] Innate Attack Enchancement: Inflicts CPs?

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Originally Posted by chandley View Post
I like your Extra Arm + Striker (Cutting, Limb). You dont need linked, Limb -20% on the Striker covers that already. This buys you an arm with hand that you can grab with at 0.5xST, that will do cutting damage based on Thrust+1 when you do. Make the Striker (Cannot Parry -40%; Weak -50%; Limb -20%; Damaged on Parry by Weapon -30%) to represent a natural limb with some spikey bits on the grabby part. That costs you 12 points for the whole construction, and gives you another arm to latch on to stuff with that hurts when you do.
Striker, Limb doesn't come with the effects of Linked automatically. If you've got Striker, Arm, you don't get Striker damage to your grapples. So some trait is clearly needed to allow a creature to inflict CP and damage in the same action.

Mouths get it for 'free', but they also have -1 to damage and CPs. That argues that this ability should cost around 3-4 points or so, judging from Innate Attack Partial Dice cost. As CPs inflicted with Bites are also restricted in what one can do with them, though, I think this might cost up to 5 points without being unbalanced.

One can always just get Extra Mouth [5] + Striker (Cutting, Mouth) [12] and then one, canonically, would have a Striker which could bite for thr (+1 per die) and grapple for thr-1 CP.

But it's a bit silly if this is supposed to represent a pincer and not a mouth at all.

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Originally Posted by chandley View Post
As for "being able to do anything a hand can do" there is no good solution to this. Ham Fisted/Bad Grip are creature wide, and Missing Digit/Missing Thumb appear to assume two hands (and would interfere with what you want, grappling). I believe it is meant to be a feature if you have _at least two arms with fully working hands_ and _more arms that may or may not be very useful as hands_.
What about using the rules under Extra Hand, to use limitations applied to 'starting' limbs as Disadvantages, and allow Weapon Mount (Grappling)?

That seems to cover a limb that can grapple, but nothing else. Add a Striker to it and you have a limb which can grapple and strike, but nothing else.

Now I just have to figure if Linked is a fair price for allowing the grapple and strike to occur simultaneously...
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Old 01-28-2014, 09:07 AM   #28
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Default Re: [TG] Innate Attack Enchancement: Inflicts CPs?

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Striker, Limb doesn't come with the effects of Linked automatically. If you've got Striker, Arm, you don't get Striker damage to your grapples. So some trait is clearly needed to allow a creature to inflict CP and damage in the same action.
Not sure why you say this, p.47 of Martial Arts says you add the +1 per dies for the Striker... so you DO get the damage bonus for the Striker, just based off of punching or kicking damage rather than off of pure Thrust. Add Arm ST to bring punch damage up to thrust if that bothers you.

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What about using the rules under Extra Hand, to use limitations applied to 'starting' limbs as Disadvantages, and allow Weapon Mount (Grappling)?

That seems to cover a limb that can grapple, but nothing else. Add a Striker to it and you have a limb which can grapple and strike, but nothing else.

Now I just have to figure if Linked is a fair price for allowing the grapple and strike to occur simultaneously...
I dislike trying to extend Weapon Mount to this, because Weapon Mount includes No Physical Attack, which prohibits it from making a grapple.
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Old 01-28-2014, 09:11 AM   #29
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Default Re: [TG] Innate Attack Enchancement: Inflicts CPs?

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Originally Posted by chandley View Post
Not sure why you say this, p.47 of Martial Arts says you add the +1 per dies for the Striker... so you DO get the damage bonus for the Striker, just based off of punching or kicking damage rather than off of pure Thrust. Add Arm ST to bring punch damage up to thrust if that bothers you.
I know you get the damage bonus. But for an ordinary limb, Striker, Limb doesn't allow you to grapple and do damage in the same action. Presumably, Extra Arm + Striker, Limb won't allow that either.

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I dislike trying to extend Weapon Mount to this, because Weapon Mount includes No Physical Attack, which prohibits it from making a grapple.
It is noted as incompatible with it, but it doesn't include it. A Weapon Mount can be a sword or a chainsaw mounted on the stub of an arm and these things are certainly physical attacks.
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Old 01-28-2014, 09:22 AM   #30
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Default Re: [TG] Innate Attack Enchancement: Inflicts CPs?

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I know you get the damage bonus. But for an ordinary limb, Striker, Limb doesn't allow you to grapple and do damage in the same action. Presumably, Extra Arm + Striker, Limb won't allow that either.
I see where you are coming from. Given you really want Link +10% for this, and so are paying 1 point for it on the arm and at most 1 point on the striker (depending on how many optional limitations you give it)... 2 points to hurt and grapple at full Arm ST seems okay. So go with your link build I think.

Quote:
It is noted as incompatible with it, but it doesn't include it. A Weapon Mount can be a sword or a chainsaw mounted on the stub of an arm and these things are certainly physical attacks.
I'll admit to never considering that as an option, which is not the same as saying you are wrong. In that interpretation of Weapon Mount, "Grapple" as the weapon might be okay... but I'd probably disallow it as a GM. I feel that I want more arm like behavior from something that can actually grab people and move them around than Weapon Mount seems to provide.
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