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Old 07-12-2016, 11:50 AM   #11
Lucian
 
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Default Re: Swords and plate

Many of my creatures have layered armor and players often layer Armor.

Let me be clear I have no issues with creatures or players dying too quickly or lasting too long.

This post got side tracked, in spite of orcs and magic existing their is a sense of realism in my world.

And I was just wondering how many other Gms use optional edge protection rules when dealing with plate armor
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Old 07-12-2016, 11:58 AM   #12
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It's probably going to be a while, but I have in the works an alternative armor and wounding system for GURPS that is meant to be more realistic, although there will certainly be cinematic switches that will allow for an orc to cut through plate with a notched axe, if that's what is desired. One reason it's going to be a while is because I need to actually design it to be gameable, which things like calculating pressure of impact (to determine if it exceeds yield strength), figuring out how Cutting works (briefly, you start with a high pressure up against the yield strength, and if you make it through you see pressure drop as more of the weapon comes into contact with the armor and character, and now you're looking at exceeding sheer rather than yield strength), and making a good scale for how depth of penetration (of impactor if it breaks through, of the crushing injury if it doesn't) influences injury don't lend themselves readily to.
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Old 07-12-2016, 01:47 PM   #13
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Default Re: Swords and plate

A combination of Edge Protection (from Low Tech), hardened steel armor (also from Low Tech), and reduced Swing dmg (from Know Your Own Strength, apparently (I don't have it yet) does the trick just fine.

If you do this, I'd recommend also playing with the rules for chinks in armor because A: there are week points to be exploited in the joints, and B: you don't want to turn every knight into an unstoppable tank.
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Old 07-12-2016, 02:28 PM   #14
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Default Re: Swords and plate

http://jetgurps.blogspot.kr/2014/04/...adding-to.html

This is the best solution I've seen to the problem and a fantastic rule add-on in general.
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Old 07-12-2016, 04:48 PM   #15
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Default Re: Swords and plate

I see this come up a lot, but Edge Protection is a spectacularly bad rule. It's too complex and it punishes well known armor-piercing weapons like axes and polearms. You want to speed play and change as little about the game as possible. EP changes all kinds of assumptions about what DR is -- and in GURPS, DR protects from injury.

A simple rule, for those persuaded that swords should never cut through armor, would be to give all sword-like weapons swing damage an armor divisor of (0.5). Put it right on the weapons tables. Thus, it changes as little as possible, and has predictable effects. You might compensate your swordsmen, if you were so disposed, by treating all sword thrusts as (2) and give them the +2 for targeting gaps that estocs and stilettos get. Thus swordsmen will attack armored foes with thrusts, and will save their edges for unarmored targets. It may overplay both a little, but it's aiming at getting the right tactics going.

Now, if you wanted to have swordsmen in armor batter on each other, with some effect, one might also count blunt trauma damage against all armor, not just flexible, and treat sword swing damage as crushing for that purpose only. Thus, a swordsman could bang on an armored knight and do some damage, giving them the feeling of accomplishment, rather than utter futility.

I'll note also that the rules for attacking joint articulation (Targeting Armor in LTC2) were designed specifically to allow plate armor to have some weaknesses. Ditto the armpit location -- using the +2 for gaps, above, and +4 for a telegraphic attack, as well as "crippling" attacks on legs and arms, it's possible to take the knights down.
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Old 07-12-2016, 05:26 PM   #16
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Default Re: Swords and plate

Where is the information that says swords don't cut into plate?

I'm not saying I don't believe it, I just never read anything like that before.

I did see this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osTQrJ_axfc Which makes it seem like you can't really get through plate.

I'm not looking for debate on validity, just some references to read through.
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Old 07-12-2016, 06:00 PM   #17
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Default Re: Swords and plate

Quote:
Originally Posted by GodBeastX View Post
Where is the information that says swords don't cut into plate?

I'm not saying I don't believe it, I just never read anything like that before.

I did see this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osTQrJ_axfc Which makes it seem like you can't really get through plate.

I'm not looking for debate on validity, just some references to read through.
That is precisely the video I watched, but I've read other information somewhere, can't remember though.

It's out their though, with a little Google searching.

I think I'll institute the low tech edged weapons and blunt trauma rules for my campaign http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=144584
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Old 07-12-2016, 06:27 PM   #18
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Default Re: Swords and plate

Quote:
Originally Posted by safisher View Post
I see this come up a lot, but Edge Protection is a spectacularly bad rule. It's too complex and it punishes well known armor-piercing weapons like axes and polearms. You want to speed play and change as little about the game as possible. EP changes all kinds of assumptions about what DR is -- and in GURPS, DR protects from injury.
...
Unless you're fighting well braced blocks of wood, axes are horrible metal weapons. You poke holes in armor not cleave in twain.
If the weapon looks too similar to a tool it's probably not optimal as a weapon.

The only way a realistic human will penetrate properly made plate armor with hand weapons in bob-and-weave combat is via chinks or swung impalers.
Polearms were mostly against cavalry if I remember correctly.
Good plate armor cost as much as a nice car or even small house. Local battles shouldn't be crawling with such rich nigh impervious mooks.
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Old 07-12-2016, 06:49 PM   #19
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Default Re: Swords and plate

I think I wouldn't change weapon stats at all and just double the DR on plate against cutting attacks. That seems to fit the modern armor stats where PI and Cut usually has higher DR.
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Old 07-12-2016, 06:50 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by GodBeastX View Post
Where is the information that says swords don't cut into plate?
Mathematically, it's pretty clear that cutting armor is a horrible idea -- as a simple approximation, if you're actually penetrating armor, the amount of work you need is proportional to the length of the slit in the armor you need. This can easily be less than an inch for a spike, and will likely be multiple inches for a blade.
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