Defensive Attack & Feint

[B9anders]

I haven't been able to find anything about this by search, so apologies if this has already been brought up.

It just occurred to me that, with the defensive attack option introduced in MA, is there any reason at all why a fighter who might previously have opted for the feint maneuver should not instead opt for a defensive attack and use the feint technique?
As far as I can see, the only effective difference between the two is that the latter gains a defensive bonus.

It seems to me that feint as a maneuver is made rather superfluous with this.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by B9anders

It just occurred to me that, with the defensive attack option introduced in MA, is there any reason at all why a fighter who might previously have opted for the feint maneuver should not instead opt for a defensive attack and use the feint technique?

I think you may be misunderstanding how Feints work. There is no difference between the Feint maneuver and the Feint technique. To use a feint, you need to make a Feint maneuver, and you roll against your weapon skill or your level in the Feint technique, whichever is better. You can't combine that with a Defensive Attack, because that's a different manuever. If you want to feint and then attack defensively, you'll need at least two attacks in a round.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by B9anders

I haven't been able to find anything about this by search, so apologies if this has already been brought up.

It just occurred to me that, with the defensive attack option introduced in MA, is there any reason at all why a fighter who might previously have opted for the feint maneuver should not instead opt for a defensive attack and use the feint technique? this.

It's not an either-or choice. The technique is just being good at the maneuver.

[B9anders]

So if I had an extra attack, or even rapid striked, I could use one of them as a feint?

If feint as a technique is tied to the feint manuever, I must admit the link seems rather blurred to me, as it seems perfectly ok to use with AoA, among others.

Perhaps I should ask: In which circumstances, other than taking a normal feint maneuver, can I use a feint? AoA, flurry of blows, extra attack? rapid strike? Dual-weapon attack?

[Mailanka]

This thread is confusing me already.

The feint technique increases your skill whenever you make a feint. You can make a feint as a manuever, but according to Martial Arts 127, you can trade attacks for Feints, which (I believe) is B9anders point: why not trade your Defense Attack attack for a feint, as the only thing you lose on a Defensive Attack is damage, so it works just like a feint, only with superior defense?

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

The feint technique increases your skill whenever you make a feint. You can make a feint as a manuever, but according to Martial Arts 127, you can trade attacks for Feints, which (I believe) is B9anders point: why not trade your Defense Attack attack for a feint, as the only thing you lose on a Defensive Attack is damage, so it works just like a feint, only with superior defense?

Note that 127 is in the section labeled "Cinematic Combat" and "Multiple Attacks." I believe it is intended only to mean that the there is nothing game breaking about allowing a fighter with multiple attacks to replace some of those attacks with feints.

If you interpret it more loosely, then, yes, the conclusion is that the Feint maneuver becomes pointless.

[SuedodeuS]

I consider Martial Arts as essentially downgrading Feint from a Maneuver to an attack (just as it downgraded Off-Hand Weapon Training from a Technique to a Perk). I think RyanW is correct in identifying this as a Cinematic Option - although personally I don't have an issue with it in a realistic campaign (getting that extra attack is harsh enough).

It should probably be possible to make an offensive Feint defensively. However, such a half-hearted attempt is likely to be more difficult to successfully pull off. Defensive Attack normally causes -2 to damage. Using the guidelines from Martial Arts, this corresponds to a -4 to attack. So, you can combine the two options - but your Feint is at -4.
If the GM feels this is too harsh, note that a Defensive Attack grapple gives the enemy a +1 to defend. With that in mind, a -2 to Feint (or +2 to the enemy's check) can be appropriate.

[Kelly Pedersen]

I think, actually, that Martial Arts is more of a clairification, rather than an option, per se. Certainly, even before MA came out, I always understood that any attack could be converted to a feint.

In any case, though, the important thing to remember is that a Feint is its own attack option, distinct from Attack, Defensive Attack, etc. If you choose to Feint as an attack, you can't say that you are using a Defensive Attack as a Feint - Feint replaces any bonus that the attack type itself would normally give, not stacks with it.

[Mailanka]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

I think, actually, that Martial Arts is more of a clairification, rather than an option, per se. Certainly, even before MA came out, I always understood that any attack could be converted to a feint.

In any case, though, the important thing to remember is that a Feint is its own attack option, distinct from Attack, Defensive Attack, etc. If you choose to Feint as an attack, you can't say that you are using a Defensive Attack as a Feint - Feint replaces any bonus that the attack type itself would normally give, not stacks with it.

Yeah, and that's the point.

If I all-out attack and feint, I lose my defense, right? And if I just attack and replace my attack with a feint, I get a standard defense. From what you're saying, if I use a Defensive Attack, I lose the benefits of my Defense Attack which are... -2 damage (whoopdedoo), but presumably, I'd still get the benefits to my defense, as we consistently see that your defense is still standard for the manuever (all-out attacks lose defense, attacks get standard defense, defensive attacks get a bonus to defense).

[cmdicely]

Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen

I think, actually, that Martial Arts is more of a clairification, rather than an option, per se. Certainly, even before MA came out, I always understood that any attack could be converted to a feint.

I don't think its quite any attack, I think its any normal unmodified attack, any attack where the modifiers for the attack can be meaningfully applied to the Feint, or an attack with bonuses that cannot be applied to the Feint and are therefore lost.

An attack with penalties that cannot meaningfully be applied to a Feint can't, I would rule, be converted into a Feint at all, unless those penalties are replaced (e.g., Defensive Attack's damage penalty could be replaced with a -4 skill penalty on the Feint, the equivalence between skill and damage modifiers suggested by AoA (Determined) compared to AoA (Strong).)