Home Rule: Aiming under fire

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by Molokh

So how does one ever put a bullet into something with Dodge 16?

Dodge 16 is... A little super-human, I think. Shouldn't be a surprise that a person with a supernaturally high dodge score is going to be hard to hit. Dodge 16 isn't something normal soldiers are going to have. Dodge 16 is more like an unhittable movie star (Trinity and Neo, Aeon, Violet, etc), and even then, probably not (Otherwise, there's not much point to doing acrobatic dodges everywhere. Well, except visual appeal).

Though keep in mind, I'm assuming you mean a natural Dodge 16, not effective as boosted by combat options. For a person with a Dodge of 11 (Already around the high-end of human norm for a unencumbered person), you'd have to dodge-and-drop and extra-effort an attempt to get a 16. And you would not be able to sustain that high dodge through combat.

However, as for dealing with someone who can dodge that high... Hitting them when they can't see the attack is the best way, yes. Anything that reduces their chances helps, too (Side shots, for example). And if nothing else, autofire can help. And if that's not good enough? Time for the grenade launchers...

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Very funny.

I wasn't making a joke. IF someone manages to get Dodge 16, they will be almost impossible to hit unless (a) you get a critical success on the attack, or (b) they totally biff their dodge roll.

The only way to eke out more than about a 10% chance of success against this guy is to ensure he doesn't even get to roll, meaning...you guessed it...hit 'em when they're not looking.

If you want to alter the rules to allow deceptive attack with ranged attacks, that's your preogative. As would be a (more sensible) dodge penalty for projectile speed.

Actually, I could easily see (in combination with the discussion about declaring defenses in another thread):

1. If you're aware of an attack, you may try to dodge the point of aim. Declare your defense now. No penalties for speed or anything.

2. Roll to hit; if you hit, they roll defense. if not, they waste a defense.

3. If you elect NOT to dodge point of aim, you take (say) a penalty for attack speed and skill, equal to half the margin of success of the attack (max -5) plus a penalty based on the Parry Missile Weapons penalties.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by David Johnston

It worked for Trinity. Of course the alternative is simply to be patient. Soon or later one of you will miss a roll, which is what both Neo and Smith were going for until they ran out of ammo.

It's just strange that a weapon with effectively instantaneous projectile speed (even 13yards per second is not enough to dodge a bullet after it left the barrel), no matter the skill level, cannot be aimed properly at the CM of the enemy body with more than 2% probability (okay 6% for criticals).

[David Johnston]

Originally Posted by Molokh

It's just strange that a weapon with effectively instantaneous projectile speed (even 13yards per second is not enough to dodge a bullet after it left the barrel), no matter the skill level, cannot be aimed properly at the CM of the enemy body with more than 2% probability (okay 6% for criticals).

It isn't strange at all. Nobody has a dodge of 16 unless they are in a comic book or a wuxia movie or something. Even then they have to be a headliner.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Molokh

So how does one ever put a bullet into something with Dodge 16?

Let me count the ways...
Rapid Fire applies a substantial penalty to dodge.
Area Effect. Dodge doesn't help if you can't clear the radius.
Critical Successes. You don't get a defense against a critical hit.
Feint or Deceptive Attack. By RAW this is only an option in HTH.
Surprise (no defense if you're not expecting it).

Dodge 16 isn't that hard to get to. Base move 5-6 + 3 defense bonus + 1 combat reflexes + 2 AoD + 2 Feverish Defense (per attack) + 2 Acrobatic Dodge + 3 Retreat (dodge and drop vs bullets) + DB from a shield or magic. Naturally you wouldn't use all these options at once, but you can certainly build a 'realistic' character that has a very high dodge.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by naloth

Rapid Fire applies a substantial penalty to dodge.

Bullet, singular.

Originally Posted by naloth

Area Effect. Dodge doesn't help if you can't clear the radius.

Bullet. Area Effect.

Originally Posted by naloth

Critical Successes. You don't get a defense against a critical hit.

Yes.

Originally Posted by naloth

Feint or Deceptive Attack. By RAW this is only an option in HTH.

That's the whole problem, or one of them.

Originally Posted by naloth

Surprise (no defense if you're not expecting it).

Not a combat option.

In short, no matter how high your skill, you can't actually deliberately point the damn barrel at the damn target. Even with skill 40.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by Molokh

In short, no matter how high your skill, you can't actually deliberately point the damn barrel at the damn target. Even with skill 40.

Sure, just not a way you're happy with. Skill 40 and an RoF 10+ will rock his world. So will setting up an ambush.

As a house rule I allow deceptive & feint attack with ranged weapons. I consider it realistic since I can fake someone into leaping the wrong way when trying to block a soccer ball or throwing something at them. It's an easy fix and I'm not sure why it isn't canon.

It's much worse with muscle powered weapons. They often only get one good shot and it's easily avoided. Do some research on the mega-archer vs the barbarian.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by naloth

Sure, just not a way you're happy with. Skill 40 and an RoF 10+ will rock his world. So will setting up an ambush.

What I was pointing out that skill alone would not help.

Originally Posted by naloth

As a house rule I allow deceptive & feint attack with ranged weapons. I consider it realistic since I can fake someone into leaping the wrong way when trying to block a soccer ball or throwing something at them. It's an easy fix and I'm not sure why it isn't canon.

I'm with you on this. In fact, I'm generally upset about this lack of canon about ranged attacks. I've seen games with lots of ranged combat, so I know what I'm ranting about.

Originally Posted by naloth

It's much worse with muscle powered weapons. They often only get one good shot and it's easily avoided. Do some research on the mega-archer vs the barbarian.

I am familiar with the legolas threads.

[KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads]

Originally Posted by naloth

Dodge 16 isn't that hard to get to. Base move 5-6 + 3 defense bonus + 1 combat reflexes + 2 AoD + 2 Feverish Defense (per attack) + 2 Acrobatic Dodge + 3 Retreat (dodge and drop vs bullets) + DB from a shield or magic. Naturally you wouldn't use all these options at once, but you can certainly build a 'realistic' character that has a very high dodge.

That will work... for one turn. On the following second, it's better for you to have Warp and use it, because your Dodge would equal Basic Move (say 6) + 1 for Combat Reflexes + 2 for All-Out Defese + 2 for Feverish Defense -3 for posture = 8. And I'm not sure I'd allow AoD and Feverish Defense to a character lying down.

[tbone]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

1. If you're aware of an attack, you may try to dodge the point of aim. Declare your defense now. No penalties for speed or anything.

2. Roll to hit; if you hit, they roll defense. if not, they waste a defense.

3. If you elect NOT to dodge point of aim, you take (say) a penalty for attack speed and skill, equal to half the margin of success of the attack (max -5) plus a penalty based on the Parry Missile Weapons penalties.

That's the way I have things, though my penalties for 3) are purely arbitrary. If you can instead base them on some criteria, as above, that may be good.