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Old 12-11-2014, 10:15 AM   #21
Icelander
 
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Default Re: [Adventure Guns] The gun cabinet of a Victorian explorer, hunter, Col. (Ret.)

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Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
I'm still "new" to 4e, but can you still trade character points for cash at creation? The Colonel may seriously consider doing that, representing time spent looking for bargains, quietly.
You can do that and if Col. H.E. Wilkinson's player is utterly unable to stomach the idea of not being able to afford a given weapon, he has up to 5 unspent character points available to elect a particularly favourite weapon as Signature Gear or spend points for cash to afford more guns.

Given that the player has already elected Weapon Bond for his saber and jambiya, as well as his biggest elephant gun*, he may well want some or all of them to be Signature Gear.

Of course, that would prevent the player from spending those points on other nifty things, such as improving a favoured skill, e.g. Broadsword, Guns (Rifle), Observation or Tactics, one level from the 15 or so skill score he has as a result of his several Bang! skills, as per GURPS Monster Hunters 1: Champions. Or grabbing a few shooting related Perks from GURPS Tactical Shooting.

*Still not decided what maker, but it will be a 4-gauge double rifle from a British gunsmith, acquired in the 1870s.

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Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
Also note that sometimes brand-new, high-end firearms are available at substantial discounts in Africa, thanks to previous owners with more cash than sense (or luck).
Certainly and Col. Wilkinson will have acquired most of his earlier hunting weapons in just such ways. However, anything he starts play with is worth book GURPS $ out of the PC's Starting Wealth, no matter what the character may have paid for it in-setting.

Items stolen, inherited or gotten at a bargain are just colourful backstory, the PC is still limited to the adventuring equipment he can buy with his Starting Wealth or use points to acquire.

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Originally Posted by ColBosch View Post
I do have to say that I really like the idea of playing up that, even at what should be a comfortable income, the character still has to struggle to afford to adventure in the style of his party.
The struggle is mainly to be able to socialise in the style of those he wants to count as his social peers, i.e. gentlemen of England (whether now abed or not).

The other PCs are mostly his social inferiors, with the exception of languid dilettante Reggie Woodsworth**, who is closely related to a whole pile of peers, not to mention his old man having had the good sense to marry a staggeringly rich American heiress.

A bibulous immigrant Catholic like Father MacManus is only theoretically more likely to be invited along to country houses for shoots with Col. Wilkinson than is a Whitechapel 'swell cove' like Georgie 'the Teapot' Frankton. In actual fact, neither is likely to have to sweat the acquisition of proper sporting gear, as neither will ever be received by anyone even remotely connected with polite society, except possibly by the odd Socialist, suffragette or other lunatic.

**Styled by his mother as Reginald St. John Woodsworth III.
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Old 12-11-2014, 10:35 AM   #22
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Default Re: Budget and roles

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Pair of Shotguns: Most probably in 12-gauge and most certainly doubles. Looking for a gunsmith that is less expensive than Purdey or Holland & Holland, but still not gauche or indicative of poverty. Preferably something of high quality, but not finished quite as expensively as the guns of great landowners or financiers with pretensions to gentility. Prepared to pay up to $5,000 per gun, but would prefer slightly lower price.

Lighter shotgun: Something tasteful and light, for when a gun is called for, but not very much gun. Single-barrel might be enough here and maybe a 16-gauge or even a 20-gauge. Can go up to $3,000, but would prefer a much lower price (ideally around $1,000), as long as it is not going to cause Reaction penalties among high society.
These people may have some names you may wish to look into...

and here is a piece on elephant guns with a few names attached.

Last edited by The Colonel; 12-11-2014 at 10:39 AM.
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Old 12-11-2014, 11:51 AM   #23
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Default Early Times of Col. H.E. Wilkinson

To nail down what firearms the Colonel would keep as treasured mementos of his past, it is necessary to mention a few key episodes of his youth.

1843
Born in Scinde, India (now the Sindh province, Pakistan) to a Persian mistress of an English East India Company officer.

1847
Given his first knife by his father. Probably a pocket-knife, but I don't know what would be most plausible for an East India Company man to obtain at that time.

1849
After the death of his mother, is dragged kicking and screaming to Europe with his father and deposited at a preparatory boarding school, most likely in Surrey, at Richmond Green. In partial compensation for being removed from the world he knew, is given his first gun by his father. It would most likely have been a rifle in an anemic gauge, good for rodents and such, but a very light shotgun is also possible.

1853
After an ecstatic reunion with his father, the boy is probably given a practice sword better than the sticks he'd used so far and a decent quality, if probably a cast-off dating back to the 1840s, shotgun in a lightish gauge.

1854
Boy is allowed to sail to join his father in Cairo. Travels with him to India, for a too-quick immersion in his childhood culture, and then to Aden, where he is fostered for several months with a married officer friendly to his father.

1855
Wild with war fever, accompanies father to the Crimea as a drummer boy. Is given a London-made Colt M-1851 'Navy' revolver in .36 caplock for self-defence by his father, who probably acquired it with some subterfuge from official stores. Still owns that gun, which sets the PCs starting funds back by $275.

1856
Escorted back to England and installed at Rugby. Due to the creativity of his father in introducing him with an invented history of being the son of a fellow officer killed in the Crimea and his unfortunately-deceased wife, now adopts the name Wilkinson and thus sheds the taint of bastardry.

1861
After an unsuccesful attempt at higher education, cut short by boredom after a few months at Oxford, young Wilkinson joins the Army. His father is able to purchase a commission in an Indian regiment and among his equippage, he presents to his son a beautiful fifty-guiena saber made by the British sword company which furnished his son's adopted name, Wilkinson. The PC still owns the sword, which may be Signature Gear, but in any case comes to some $4,500-$6,000, depending on the level of ostensation the player decides on.

The generous gesture may be motivated in part by guilt, however, as the father is able to snatch only moments with his son before he marries a well-born Frenchwoman who is not apprised of the relationship between the two, other than as 'the son of an old friend who died in the Crimea'.

Other relevant equipment includes a Beaumont-Adams in .442 caplock, which the player may or may not want to keep unaltered to the present day, i.e. start of play. If he does, it will come to $275. Shortly after arrival, the penniless-but-keen young sportsman will have obtained a rifle, which would most likely have been an Enfield P/1853 in .577 caplock. If he keeps it to the present day without conversion, it will come to $285.

1863-1866
For at least a part of that period, Lt. Wilkinson was in Cairo. At some point in this period, prior to 1865, he obtained an exquisite jambiya from an Arabic sheikh, who was his very particular friend. It might be Signature Gear, but at any rate, comes to $1,120.

1867
Acquired a brand-new Snider Pattern II carbine in .577 Snider, for purposes of hunting and general adventure, which costs the PC $350. May have had his Enfield rifle converted to a Snider Pattern I, which would run him $375 or +$90 over keeping it unaltered.

1867-1870
Bought his first purpose-built big game hunting weapons. Among the first was likely a used and battered 10 or 8-bore double rifle whose previous owner had met misfortune. Would also have obtained a few workmanlike shotguns and a lighter bore double still able to take deer and perhaps tiger. A good gun for the latter might be a Howdah double in 12-bore, a higher-pressure double rifle around 24-bore or a more modern .500 Black Powder Express or similar cartridge. May or may not still own any of these weapons, in light of improvements in gun actions and cartridge design.

1871-1874
Acquired, for military and sporting use, the following weapons which he still owns: Martini-Henry in .450 MH for $550, a Tranter Man-Stopper revolver in .477 Boxer for $750 and a Webley No. 2 British Bulldog in .450 Adams for $260. Most likely had his Beaumont-Adams converted to an Adams Mk I for +$75 over keeping it unaltered, but if he did not, then he probably also bought an Adams Mk III in .450 Adams for $300. If he did not obtain one earlier, would have gotten a .500 (Black Powder) Express double rifle of good quality, if plain finish. One ought to be available at $2,000 or lower, unless they are wildly more expensive than a Sharps buffalo rifle or a Remington Rolling Block in a comparable class.

1875-1878
Acquired for hunting African elephant a high-quality, if not luxuriously finished, 4-bore double rifle which he still owns and which may not exceed $6,000 in cost. Also acquired a Winchester Model 1876 in .45-75 Winchester, which runs him $460. Likely to have acquired more guns, but do not know if he kept any when new and improved models became available. He may have started looking for a better long-range weapon than the Martini-Henry at this point, but it is unclear if he obtained one this soon or if he only managed to have a fine rifle made upon next returning to England.

1879-1880
Fought in the Second Anglo-Afghan War and was promoted to (Brevet) Lieutenant Colonel of his regiment of Scinde Horse. Obtained a shiny new Webley No. 5 New Model Army Express in .476 Enfield at the end of the war, from the effects of a dead young officer with the newest and best of everything, which comes to $500. Newfound fame greatly increased his income after the war, so after this, the Colonel would have been able to afford to refurbish old and tired guns, convert to modern actions if necessary and buy many new weapons.
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Old 12-11-2014, 12:29 PM   #24
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Default Re: Budget and roles

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Originally Posted by The Colonel View Post
These people may have some names you may wish to look into...
Yes, I imagine that a pair of 12-gauge Westley Richards doubles with an A&D boxlock ejector would do nicely. Or ought it maybe be one 10-gauge and one 12-gauge? Can you do that with a pair of guns? Is it ill-bred?

Would such guns be available without fancy decorations, costing no more than $3,000 each?*

Does anyone know what the 'plain' model of a Westley Richards shotgun would be called?

Edit: It looks like the plainest Westley Richards available would be a 'D' grade and cost $3,120 GURPS or so.

Entirely satisfactorily.

*That would be comparable to the Greener Facile Princeps, a 10-gauge double at $3,350 GURPS in Adventure Guns.

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[and here is a piece on elephant guns with a few names attached.
Hmm... if you were to acquire the weapon between 1873-1876, either in Karachi, Bombay or Mombasa, and you wanted a 4-bore double rifle, what's most likely?

There weren't all that many making (or buying) the monstrously heavy doubles, so I don't know if I can just pick any manufacturer's name that I or the player likes.

In any case, the plainest version available, but still high-quality. Budget is $6,000 GURPS, which is not far from £50-£60 value in the period.
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Old 12-12-2014, 05:44 AM   #25
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Default Re: Budget and roles

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Yes, I imagine that a pair of 12-gauge Westley Richards doubles with an A&D boxlock ejector would do nicely. Or ought it maybe be one 10-gauge and one 12-gauge? Can you do that with a pair of guns? Is it ill-bred?

Would such guns be available without fancy decorations, costing no more than $3,000 each?*

Does anyone know what the 'plain' model of a Westley Richards shotgun would be called?

Edit: It looks like the plainest Westley Richards available would be a 'D' grade and cost $3,120 GURPS or so.

Entirely satisfactorily.

*That would be comparable to the Greener Facile Princeps, a 10-gauge double at $3,350 GURPS in Adventure Guns.


Hmm... if you were to acquire the weapon between 1873-1876, either in Karachi, Bombay or Mombasa, and you wanted a 4-bore double rifle, what's most likely?

There weren't all that many making (or buying) the monstrously heavy doubles, so I don't know if I can just pick any manufacturer's name that I or the player likes.

In any case, the plainest version available, but still high-quality. Budget is $6,000 GURPS, which is not far from £50-£60 value in the period.
I'm afraid I have no idea about original purchase prices for classic shotguns - so unless you've got some seriously well informed people in your group you can probably get way with the amount of detail you have. I do know, however, that a matched pair of different calibres would be deeply bizarre and unlikely to occur so you're more likely to see a pair of twelves - I've not seen many ten bores in the UK, and those that I have seen are usually goose guns if that helps.

Information on 4-bores is even sketchier - I know Henry Stanley used a Belgian copy of a Remington if that helps. Selous' famous muzzle loader is even less well characterised.
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Old 12-12-2014, 06:11 AM   #26
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Default Game effects of hammers, locks and ejectors

Does anyone know if there are game effects, for example in the time it takes to reload, between exposed hammer guns and the myriad of technological advances that occured between 1850 to 1900.

The Greener Elephant Rifle in High-Tech and Adventure Guns is Shots 2 (3i), but it doesn't say if it has automatic ejectors or not. My gut feeling is that exposed hammer doubles were usually made before the patenting of the most popular automatic ejectors, but then again, the listed years for the Greener Elephant Rifle in HT and AG start at 1881, which is after most of the advances in locks and ejectors have occured.

Would older guns of 1850s or 1860s vintage have Shots 2 (4i) or is the difference below game resolution?*

Is there any game difference between a 10-gauge exposed hammer double shotgun made in 1865 and a hammerless sidelock or boxlock double of the same gauge made in 1885?

Are there any game differences between an 8-bore hunting double rifle made using the newest advances in technology 1863 and one made to the most modern standards in 1883?

Edit: Judging from Adventure Guns p. 22, the Greener Facile Princeps of pre-1880 vintage lacks automatic ejectors and thus has Shots 2(3i). With automatic ejectors, reloading time is reduced by one second per barrel, to Shots 2(2i).

This leads me to believe that automatic ejectors for double rifles would have the same effect and thus, that while there may be no game effects inherent in whether a gun has exposed hammers or some type of hammerless lock action, any action which incorporates a reliable automatic ejector has a concrete effect, in reducing reloading time.

Now, I just have to discover how practical it was to convert an exposed hammer 1860s vintage weapon to a weapon which could use an automatic ejector, with or without also changing the action.

*If so, why was it regarded as such an advance in real-life?
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Old 12-12-2014, 08:46 AM   #27
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Default Black Powder Express Rifle stats

I can use Douglas Cole's work to find out the damage of any round I want, but I'm having trouble with how to assign GURPS range stats. They are largely an abstraction and appear to have no clear relationship with any metric I can look up or derive from information on period cartridges.

For example, I know that the typical load for .500 Black Powder Express in a 3" cartridge is nearly identical to the .50-140 Sharps in performance.

But I don't know what the effect on the 1/2D and Maximum Range statistics it has to go from the .50-90 Sharps stats listed in Adventure Guns up to a higher velocity.

I can guess that it improves both more than the .50-115 Bullard does, as not only does it have more velocity, but bullet weight is greater for the same diameter, which means a better sectional density.

At what point does a .50 caliber bullet reach the same long 1/2D range as the .45-110 Sharps gets from the Sharps Long Range Model 1874 on Adventure Guns p. 31?

Presumably no 440-500 grain bullet in .50 caliber is going to have the same excellent sectional density of a .45 caliber bullet weighing 550 grains. Most don't even reach the excellent 1/2D range of the .45-70 Government with its factory load of 405 grain bullet in a .45 caliber.

Would a Range of 450/4,200 be plausible for a .500 Black Powder Express with a 440 grain bullet (and/or a .50-140 Sharps with the same bullet)? With a 500 grain bullet allowing up to 500/4,200?
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Old 12-12-2014, 09:17 AM   #28
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Default Re: Black Powder Express Rifle stats

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
I can use Douglas Cole's work to find out the damage of any round I want, but I'm having trouble with how to assign GURPS range stats. They are largely an abstraction and appear to have no clear relationship with any metric I can look up or derive from information on period cartridges.

For example, I know that the typical load for .500 Black Powder Express in a 3" cartridge is nearly identical to the .50-140 Sharps in performance.

But I don't know what the effect on the 1/2D and Maximum Range statistics it has to go from the .50-90 Sharps stats listed in Adventure Guns up to a higher velocity.

I can guess that it improves both more than the .50-115 Bullard does, as not only does it have more velocity, but bullet weight is greater for the same diameter, which means a better sectional density.

At what point does a .50 caliber bullet reach the same long 1/2D range as the .45-110 Sharps gets from the Sharps Long Range Model 1874 on Adventure Guns p. 31?

Presumably no 440-500 grain bullet in .50 caliber is going to have the same excellent sectional density of a .45 caliber bullet weighing 550 grains. Most don't even reach the excellent 1/2D range of the .45-70 Government with its factory load of 405 grain bullet in a .45 caliber.

Would a Range of 450/4,200 be plausible for a .500 Black Powder Express with a 440 grain bullet (and/or a .50-140 Sharps with the same bullet)? With a 500 grain bullet allowing up to 500/4,200?
I have a form that estimates the 1/2D range
http://panoptesv.com/RPGs/Equipment/...mCartridge.php
Maximum range is usually about 3 to 5 times the 1/2D range, but I have not gotten around to putting it in yet. Note that I use somewhat different assumptions for penetration than found elsewhere (detailed in the link near the bottom of the page).

Luke

EDIT: the gauge measurement input appears to be screwy. It may be best to convert to inches of mm manually. No time to fix it now.

Last edited by lwcamp; 12-12-2014 at 09:21 AM.
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Old 12-12-2014, 10:18 AM   #29
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Default Re: Black Powder Express Rifle stats

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Originally Posted by lwcamp View Post
I have a form that estimates the 1/2D range
http://panoptesv.com/RPGs/Equipment/...mCartridge.php
Maximum range is usually about 3 to 5 times the 1/2D range, but I have not gotten around to putting it in yet. Note that I use somewhat different assumptions for penetration than found elsewhere (detailed in the link near the bottom of the page).

Luke

EDIT: the gauge measurement input appears to be screwy. It may be best to convert to inches of mm manually. No time to fix it now.
Looks cool.

Where do I find bullet aspect ratio in any sources?

Or is there a convenient method of calculating the actual length of a typical Victorian bullet if I know that it's a (mostly) soft lead bullet of a given diameter and weight?
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Old 12-12-2014, 11:04 AM   #30
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Default Re: Black Powder Express Rifle stats

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Looks cool.

Where do I find bullet aspect ratio in any sources?

Or is there a convenient method of calculating the actual length of a typical Victorian bullet if I know that it's a (mostly) soft lead bullet of a given diameter and weight?
I expect that most bullets of the time were aspect ratio 1 (spheres) or around 1.5.

If you know the bullet mass, you can divide by the density of lead (11.35 g/cm^3) to get the volume, then divide by the frontal area (pi * (bore diameter)^2 / 4) to get an approximation of the length. Divide the length by the bore diameter for the aspect ratio.

Or, you can go to google images and do an image search for the bullet or cartridge of your choice, then estimate the aspect ratio from the photo.

I hope this helps.

Luke
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