Job roll, wealth level and cost of living: Great Merchant's case

[Sorenant]

I'm having a hard time understanding the rules around job rolls. Specifically, wealth level multipliers.
Taking as an example the Merchant and Master Merchant jobs from Banestorm (p.211), it seems the Master earns 4 times the monthly pay of a Merchant, not igual but close enough to the Wealthy pay multipler (x5). If I consider that's his total earning, it would at minimal skill level and on average roll (11), $200*16*1.5=$4,800. Now according to p.121, Great Merchants have status 3 which requires $12,000 per month to maintain. So the Master Merchant job is not enough. This looks like a problem.
Now if I apply the Wealthy multipler on top of it, I get $20,400 which is enough for status 3 but not for 4. If I should always apply the wealth level multiplier the job description states, it's kinda silly they haven simply built in the monthy pay ($200xskill roll to $1,000xskill roll). If I must apply my character's wealth level, it becomes pointless.

So how exactly should I calculate the monthy pay of the jobs listed on books like Banestorm and Fantasy?

[Stormcrow]

Don't multiply pay by Wealth level. You don't get paid more for being wealthy.

The Great Merchant listed on the Hazi and Wazifi Status table is not the same thing as the Master Merchant job, which is listed as supporting Status 1. Your master merchant made $4,800 this month. This could support a Status 2 character, and we do see the job listed as Wealthy level.

Unless this is an error, it means that a master merchant makes a lot more money than his Status would suggest: he has lots of assets, but doesn't spend them on a Status 2 lifestyle. I'm not sure why that would be.

[AlexanderHowl]

A Great Merchant would probably be a Master Merchant with Filthy Rich (giving him enough money to increase his status through sheer influence). Since a Filthy Rich person starts with 20x as much wealth as a Wealthy person, he would make 20x as much at a Wealthy job (Campaigns, p. 517). I would honestly require a minimum of Merchant 20 for Great Merchant Status, and I would say that they would earn an average of $160,000 per month ($200 × prerequisite skill x (1 + (average margin of success/10)) x 20).

[Sorenant]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

Don't multiply pay by Wealth level. You don't get paid more for being wealthy.

The Great Merchant listed on the Hazi and Wazifi Status table is not the same thing as the Master Merchant job, which is listed as supporting Status 1. Your master merchant made $4,800 this month. This could support a Status 2 character, and we do see the job listed as Wealthy level.

Unless this is an error, it means that a master merchant makes a lot more money than his Status would suggest: he has lots of assets, but doesn't spend them on a Status 2 lifestyle. I'm not sure why that would be.

I'm fine with the Wealth Level and Status displayed being the ones appropriate for that job but if so it leaves me wondering how do a merchant get from there to Great Merchant's status 3 (CoL 4 times higher). Administrative Rank? Other family members (allies?) contributing to the family's capital?

Tangentially, how would I go designing the son of a wealthy man going into an adventure? He wouldn't actually own anything but would have access to it so I'd guess some combination of Heir, Patron and Claim to Hospitality? Would he actually be able to enjoy his parent's manors during off times even if he did not pay the 80% starting wealth at the start of the game?

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

A Great Merchant would probably be a Master Merchant with Filthy Rich (giving him enough money to increase his status through sheer influence). Since a Filthy Rich person starts with 20x as much wealth as a Wealthy person, he would make 20x as much at a Wealthy job (Campaigns, p. 517). I would honestly require a minimum of Merchant 20 for Great Merchant Status, and I would say that they would earn an average of $160,000 per month ($200 × prerequisite skill x (1 + (average margin of success/10)) x 20).

That was one of my interpretations and it makes sense for merchants. Someone with more capital and connections (higher wealth level) would make more profit than someone with same skill but without those traits.
Unfortunately, it doesn't make much sense for others. Say a Mercenary Captain from a rich background, I don't think it makes as much sense that he would get so much more money from his wealth. Maybe his connections give him access to better contracts but even so I don't think he would get contracts paying 5 or 20 times more than the average captain.

[AlexanderHowl]

He would probably be a mercenary general then, and would have a couple dozens of mercenary captains under his command. With 2500 mercenary personnel and 2500 support staff under his command, his mercenary companies would be known throughout the continent. He might even own or rent an academy for training soldiers and officers, farms and ranches for cavalry mounts and provisions, crafting enterprises to produce equipment, and merchant caravans to move around supplies. If he is really smart, he invests in the businesses of his disabled and/or retired personnel (lending them the money to get started for a percentage of the business) so that they have a vested interest in channeling information and selling him honest goods and services.

[Kelly Pedersen]

Originally Posted by Sorenant

[snip] it leaves me wondering how do a merchant get from there to Great Merchant's status 3 (CoL 4 times higher). Administrative Rank? Other family members (allies?) contributing to the family's capital?

Administrative Rank is probably a good start, yes. A great merchant is probably not just handling their own caravan with a few teamsters and guards (Administrative Rank 1 or 2), they're almost certainly managing several caravans or other trading concerns (Administrative Rank 3) or even one more tier up, managing people who are in turn managing several things (Rank 4 or 5). Even Rank 1-4 boosts the Merchant's Status by 1 for free, and if they hit 5, it's 2.

Originally Posted by Sorenant

Tangentially, how would I go designing the son of a wealthy man going into an adventure? He wouldn't actually own anything but would have access to it so I'd guess some combination of Heir, Patron and Claim to Hospitality?

That's how I'd do it, yeah. In general, limitations like Heir will generally give access to half the point value of the trait until it "comes due", so if the family overall is Filthy Rich (30 points), you could treat the heir with Filthy Rich (Heir, -50%) as functioning as Comfortable wealth (half of Filthy Rich is 15 points, and you round down to 10 points for Comfortable).

Originally Posted by Sorenant

Would he actually be able to enjoy his parent's manors during off times even if he did not pay the 80% starting wealth at the start of the game?

I'd generally allow this, yes. Remember, if you take the 80%/20% split for a settled lifestyle, the non-adventuring possessions part of things doesn't have to exactly equal 80% of your starting wealth, and in fact, it can be worth significantly more - the limitations is that you can't take most of it on adventures with you, it's just background, and if you do choose to liquidate it all for cash, it will never come out to more than that 80% of starting wealth, due to various reasons. So the heir can enjoy his family's mansions and drink their booze and whatnot. I'd probably use his effective Wealth level to describe how much the family was willing to put up with him doing so. So, if as above, he's functioning at Comfortable Wealth, then I'd say he can throw a party for a few friends every week, eat full, good meals every day courtesy of the kitchens, and sleep in a good bed with fine linens. But if he tries to hold a party with over 50 people every night, feast on peacock tongue and pearls dissolved in vinegar every night, and sleep in a different master bedroom with silk sheets every night, the family will probably cut him off, or at least discipline him.

[/quote]
That was one of my interpretations and it makes sense for merchants. Someone with more capital and connections (higher wealth level) would make more profit than someone with same skill but without those traits.
Unfortunately, it doesn't make much sense for others. Say a Mercenary Captain from a rich background, I don't think it makes as much sense that he would get so much more money from his wealth. Maybe his connections give him access to better contracts but even so I don't think he would get contracts paying 5 or 20 times more than the average captain.[/QUOTE]

20 times, perhaps not. But I can easily see 5 times - a captain with Average wealth is probably hiring out to extremely minor nobles or to small cities to supplement their militia. Whereas one with Wealthy has developed their reputation, and is "the right sort of people", and is getting hired by major nobles and big cities, probably to provide actual military muscle for an offensive campaign. In short, the people the captain is being hired by probably have at least five times the wealth compared to the employers of their poorer counterpart, and thus they can afford to pay more as well.

Once it gets to the X20 level, it's probably not plausible to still be a mercenary captain, sure. But this brings us to another point - jobs are not simply automatically tied to Wealth level. Instead, different jobs support certain Wealth levels. It's up to the player and GM to work together and make sure that a character's job actually makes sense for their Wealth level. Some jobs can certainly support a variety of Wealth levels, and in those cases, if you buy your Wealth trait up in play, it makes sense to increase the pay for the job to keep up. But for the vast majority of jobs, you'll come to the point where it just doesn't make sense to keep the same job anymore. To use an extreme example, say a character is a beggar with Status -1 and Poor Wealth. If they somehow save the pennies they're earning and bank enough points, they could eventually reduce the Wealth disadvantage from Poor to Struggling. At that point, begging would not suddenly become more lucrative for them. Instead, they should get another job - quite possibly, they already did, and getting that new, slightly better job was part of the roleplaying involved in getting higher Wealth.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by Sorenant

I'm fine with the Wealth Level and Status displayed being the ones appropriate for that job but if so it leaves me wondering how do a merchant get from there to Great Merchant's status 3 (CoL 4 times higher). Administrative Rank? Other family members (allies?) contributing to the family's capital?

It's a separate job not statted up in the book. Write up a new job. Make Status 3 a prerequisite. Otherwise, I'm not sure of the job requirements of a Hazi or Wazifi Great Merchant.

[AlexanderHowl]

In the case of a Grand Merchant, two levels of his status would come from Administrative Rank, but I doubt that anyone without Filthy Rich would be considered accomplished enough to by his peers to be given that title. In effect, his peers pay for his higher standard of living because he uses his influence and wealth to make their lives eaiser.

In the case of a beggar, the increase in wealth would represent him or her becoming a leader of beggars, where the increased wealth comes from tribute from dozens of beggars. A beggar king or beggar queen would claim tribute from every beggar in a city, meaning that the beggar king or beggar gueen of Megalos or another capital city could be quite wealthy. The same applies to bandits, pirates, smugglers, and thieves.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

Don't multiply pay by Wealth level. You don't get paid more for being wealthy.

I think there's an ambiguity here due to two job income formats coexisting:

• One is that the TL's standard income is multiplied by the wealth multiplier, which means that yes you do get paid more for 'being' Wealthy (in this case that means having spent points on Wealth). See the uFAQ for Krommquotes on what the Wealth advantage represents and includes - how much cash you have on hand is just a small part of it.
• The other is the table of jobs with already pre-calculated incomes.

It's been a while since I read Banestorm and I don't remember whether it sticks to the latter, but I suspect it does.

[AlexanderHowl]

But you can convert existing jobs to higher level jobs through multiplying the amount of money earned. For example, a Great Merchant is a Filthy Rich job that requires Merchant-20 and pays 20x as much as a Master Merchant. You see this in real life with corporate CEO pay, which can vary from $250,000 to $25,000,000.