[LT] [LTC2] [MA] Some questions about weapons and armor

[GenInsJoe]

Hi all,

I have been searching around for awhile and still can't find answers to some questions. Any thoughts would be appreciated, and if I should separate any questions into its own thread, please tell me and I will do so.

1) In LTC2 there are rules for adding a longer handle to hafted weapons, increasing reach. Okay, simple enough. But what about having a sword with a longer handle?

I know that some swords (notably the katana, longsword, and bastard sword) have a 1-h and 2-h handle, but there are other swords that have special benefits to them, and, historically (AFAIK) had versions with longer handles. Specifically, the Estoc and the Jian; with the former being good against opponents in armor and the latter being able to be considered a fencing weapon. What adding a longer handle would do is not increase reach, but remove the penalty for defensive grip (from MA), and give a 2-h option (for the added damage) to the base weapon.

What I think is reasonable is a +5% weight and +0.5CF. Thoughts?


2) Would/should it be possible to USE a flexible armor like mail AS the padding for plate? Or would the plate then not fit comfortably? (Assuming that the mail had it's own padding still)


3) Why does layered armor on the chest cause the -1DX penalty, but not the abdomen?

I get why in the rules (AKA the math), but it doesn't seem right. I understand the DX penalty for limbs or joints; it's fairly obvious why those get a penalty. However, I don't understand why layering on the chest imposes this penalty, but not the abdomen. Obviously, the percentages for the chest and abdomen should not be switched, the chest takes up a much larger portion of the torso. But when moving around/swinging objects, it seems that the chest itself doesn't move much. If the DX penalty is because of the bulk of the two layers of armor, shouldn't very thick plate also have a DX penalty (aside from encumbrance penalties)? For example, if I have a DR10 Corselet (Chest), DR10 Flaud (Seg. Plate); I am not given a DX penalty. However if I have DR3+4* on chest and DR4* on abdomen, representing a light plate corselet over a fine mail shirt, I have -1DX to all tasks. This seems especially odd because of the description of fine mail being basically metal cloth.

Now, I will admit that I have never run around in armor (though I would not be opposed to it, were I able to procure some), so I am honestly asking for a reason why it is how it is; not trying to criticize or be confrontational.


4) Why are the shins more expensive to armor than thighs?

Thighs seem significantly larger than the shins, so the percentages for the legs given in [LT] seem a bit off.


5) Why can, RAW, a Jack of Plates (because it is under seg. plate) be fluted but a brigantine not be? If it is because the number of plates, then shouldn't scale likewise not be able to be fluted?


6) If you make a gorget out of segmented plate at TL3, does it still restrict neck movement as much as one made out of Hardened Leather or Plate? Basically, do you have to "wait" until TL4 to be able to have better movement from a gorget?


Thanks for your feedback!

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by GenInsJoe

1) In LTC2 there are rules for adding a longer handle to hafted weapons, increasing reach. Okay, simple enough. But what about having a sword with a longer handle?

Then it wouldn't be a sword; it would be a polearm. Use the stats for something like a naginata.

I know that some swords (notably the katana, longsword, and bastard sword) have a 1-h and 2-h handle, but there are other swords that have special benefits to them, and, historically (AFAIK) had versions with longer handles. Specifically, the Estoc and the Jian; with the former being good against opponents in armor and the latter being able to be considered a fencing weapon. What adding a longer handle would do is not increase reach, but remove the penalty for defensive grip (from MA), and give a 2-h option (for the added damage) to the base weapon.

What I think is reasonable is a +5% weight and +0.5CF. Thoughts?

The estoc (English "tuck") is a longsword without a cutting edge. It is essentially a long spike with a handle and was designed for jamming between pieces of plate. I'm pretty sure that there are specific stats for it in either LT or MA. The jian is simply a broadsword or a longsword depending on its length.

2) Would/should it be possible to USE a flexible armor like mail AS the padding for plate? Or would the plate then not fit comfortably? (Assuming that the mail had it's own padding still)

Armour padding is too light to provide any additional DR. If you want plate over mail then use the armour layering rules in Low-Tech. Historically, it was a common combination. The Low-Tech Armor Loadouts book will be a big help for you.

3) Why does layered armor on the chest cause the -1DX penalty, but not the abdomen?

Armour needs to cover half of a body part to cause penalties. The abdomen is 1/3 the total area of the torso. If someone wanted to wear rigid armour on the abdomen - perhaps something like a WWF wrestling belt that makes it hard to bend at the waist - then I would consider penalties.

4) Why are the shins more expensive to armor than thighs?

Thighs seem significantly larger than the shins, so the percentages for the legs given in [LT] seem a bit off.

Abdomen armour covers the top of the thighs; the part that is left is smaller than the shin. Also note that the thigh is harder to hit (2/6) than the shin (3/6) so it also maintains game balance.

5) Why can, RAW, a Jack of Plates (because it is under seg. plate) be fluted but a brigantine not be? If it is because the number of plates, then shouldn't scale likewise not be able to be fluted?

Some combinations are not practical and were never used historically. The rules can't give a list of every possible combination and tell you which are valid and which are not. The GM is entitled to rule that some things aren't allowed. Personally I would not allow a jack of plates or scale armour to be worn under any other armour.

6) If you make a gorget out of segmented plate at TL3, does it still restrict neck movement as much as one made out of Hardened Leather or Plate? Basically, do you have to "wait" until TL4 to be able to have better movement from a gorget?

You need TL4 technology with sliding rivets and neck "turns" to avoid penalties with neck armour. The Low-Tech Armor Loadouts book will be a big help for you.
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/books/l.../lowtecharmor/

[Ashtagon]

1) I can see it offering a 2-H option, but I can't see why it would help with a defensive grip. I assume there are reasonable rules for what happens if a nominally 1-H weapon is wielded in two hands.

2) By default, I believe the rules say you can stack any amount of armour until the GM says lolnope. Creating detailed rules for armour stacking seems a bit below the resolution of GURPS.

3) I suspect this one is grounded in legacy rules cruft from older editions, but I defer to people experienced in wearing armour. Worth noting that any chest armour of significance is going to impose some arm movement limitations, and even your upper body has some flexibility normally.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by GenInsJoe

5) Why can, RAW, a Jack of Plates (because it is under seg. plate) be fluted but a brigantine not be? If it is because the number of plates, then shouldn't scale likewise not be able to be fluted?

The difference between a jack of plates and a brigantine is that the former is sewn and the latter riveted.

Most historical jacks were made from recycled pieces of other armor, and I suspect any fluting would have been hammered flat. The examples I've seen all have fairly regular pieces.

I wouldn't trust fluted plates in either construction not to bind with the fabric. I would just not allow fluting for either construction.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Personally I would not allow a jack of plates or scale armour to be worn under any other armour.

I've worn a jack with a steel gorget.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I've worn a jack with a steel gorget.

Different body locations. Try wearing a jack of plates under a steel cuirass.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

Different body locations.

The collar on that jack had plates so there was considerable overlap.

Try wearing a jack of plates under a steel cuirass.

Yeah, that's probably a bad plan. Although it would fall somewhere between mail under cuirass and something basically impossible like two cuirasses.

Although I'm not sure why a brig under a cuirass would be any better, and I guess that was maybe a thing?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

I wouldn't trust fluted plates in either construction not to bind with the fabric.

I'm not that familiar with fluting on armor, but if you want to carve grooves out of a surface without significantly weakening it, the grooves have to be arranged in a way where it's not practical to bend the plate along the line of the groove. This either means a curved surface with grooves that aren't along the axis of curvature, or somewhat specialized groove patterns. A standard metal stair surface pattern (e.g. http://logrithmic.com/wp-content/upl...ds-Pattern.jpg) would work for fluted flat plates, though doing that at TL 3-4 might be challenging.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I'm not that familiar with fluting on armor, but if you want to carve grooves out of a surface without significantly weakening it, the grooves have to be arranged in a way where it's not practical to bend the plate along the line of the groove. This either means a curved surface with grooves that aren't along the axis of curvature, or somewhat specialized groove patterns. A standard metal stair surface pattern (e.g. http://logrithmic.com/wp-content/upl...ds-Pattern.jpg) would work for fluted flat plates, though doing that at TL 3-4 might be challenging.

This is what gothic fluting generally looks like:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...broja_1514.JPG

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

This is what gothic fluting generally looks like:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...broja_1514.JPG

Here it is on scale armour.
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/58/23/46/5...mail-gaius.jpg

Sometimes embossed domes were used instead of ridges
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/67/71/d7/6...es-warfare.jpg

Although I'm not sure why a brig under a cuirass would be any better, and I guess that was maybe a thing?

Not that I'm aware of. Brigs cost more than steel cuirasses. If more protection was needed then the plates would simply have been made thicker. There are some brigs that were proofed against firearms.

The collar on that jack had plates so there was considerable overlap.

Less than half of the hit location so there would be no layering penalties.