GURPS Fantasy: Portal Realms

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Steven Marsh

As an aside, this sounds like a great opportunity for a Pyramid article — especially if it ties into and expands on Portal Realms. (I could easily see it fitting in the Alternate GURPS issue, for example . . . although, now that I type it out, it sounds a bit like C.R. Rice's "Dungeon Fantasy Video Gaming" from Pyramid #3/72: Alternate Dungeons.)

See, there's your engraved invitation. . . .

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Why do you assume they're not coming back?

I remember a Poul Anderson short story—an early one, I think—where the hero is a mighty-thewed sword-swinging barbarian conquering an evil empire; but he's really a man from modern-day New York, whose mind was placed in the barbarian's body, so that his knowledge of organization and logistics and intelligence analysis could be applied to the other world's conflict. And he likes his life of heroic adventure. And then at the end it turns out that the barbarian warrior has decided that life in New York suits him: His new brain has a higher IQ, he has the excitement and challenges of running a business, he's happily married instead of having a series of short encounters with beautiful but unpleasant women, and he can fly any time he feels like spending a little money. So neither wants to go back—but both were expecting to. . . .

Because (A) in cases I've seen there's typically no expectation of a means of return, and (B) if a return did happen the story, and by extension the campaign, would be over.

The latter seems fairly ubiquitous in portal fantasy I can think of. Sure, occasionally there's a sequel where some of the same characters get to go back, but it's potentially to a quite separate story on the other side (Narnia) and in any case the intervening time back home is mostly or entirely skipped.

[thrash]

Originally Posted by whswhs

As for isekai, well, there's a lot of anime and manga; I don't stay current on all of it, and seemingly neither do my playtesters. So I haven't heard of the series you refer to. They sound as if they're mainly shonen, and my tastes seem to run to shoujo (to give you examples, the two series I've bought myself rather than having them as gifts are A Bride's Story and Girls und Panzer, neither of which has any portal realm elements). So this was an oversight.

Fair enough. As an aside, Girls und Panzer runs in a seinen magazine, the same one that publishes the manga adaptations of two of the series I referenced (KonoSuba and Re:Zero).

Originally Posted by whswhs

But aside from that, it sounds as if this is not the same genre as portal fantasy, even though it borrows elements from it, .... In both cases I think you're looking at something that has become a genre of its own.

I think what started out as portal fantasy has expanded into other, less related areas under the same umbrella term. Part of that is the copy-cat effect: Sword Art Online was wildly successful with the "trapped in a video game" format.

And perhaps it works in the other direction; are isekai fans familiar with, say, Narnia or the Compleat Enchanter or Labyrinth? do they regard them as part of their genre?

I'm certain I've seen allusions to both Narnia and Labyrinth, so I would say yes. I've also seen elements of Compleat Enchanter adapted wholesale, but I think they are more cases of parallel evolution.

Of all of the series I've mentioned, I would recommend Grimgar of Fantasy and Ash to your attention, as most likely to interest you (from what I've seen of your campaigns). The writing is what you'd expect from an English translation of a light novel series, but it is a well-conceived deconstruction of what might happen if you actually transported modern teenagers to a dungeon fantasy world. The body count is high.

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by whswhs

But aside from that, it sounds as if this is not the same genre as portal fantasy, even though it borrows elements from it, just as superhero adventure isn't really science fiction, even though it often includes science fictional elements. In both cases I think you're looking at something that has become a genre of its own. And perhaps it works in the other direction; are isekai fans familiar with, say, Narnia or the Compleat Enchanter or Labyrinth? do they regard them as part of their genre? In particular, the whole concept that the protagonists can see their status or help screens would take a radically different set of mechanics that wouldn't have much use in classic portal fantasy. (Though that might make a useful focus for a Pyramid article, if some isekai fan wanted to write one!)

This blog gives a sound overview, and says this, but avoids the term "portal fantasy":

Edgar Rice Burroughs’ Barsoom series is considered by Japanese fans to be the foundation for this [transference type] subgenre.
...
What is clear is that Isekai is by no means a genre exclusive to Japanese or Eastern fiction. The genre has been around in the West for a large period of time under other names. Fantasy examples include the Barsoom series, or Stranger in a Strange Land (I almost feel as if this was a translation from Japanese to English). But there are what we would call literary works that fall under this genre too: Alice in Wonderland, The Divine Comedy, Chronicles of Narnia, Myth of Gilgamesh, Wizard of Oz, The Odyssey, and Peter Pan are all beloved classics that can be called Isekai.

At the end, he describes nondescript handle's LitRPG as VR/MMORPG novels, and says they're separate genres but which are converging.

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

The latter seems fairly ubiquitous in portal fantasy I can think of. Sure, occasionally there's a sequel where some of the same characters get to go back, but it's potentially to a quite separate story on the other side (Narnia) and in any case the intervening time back home is mostly or entirely skipped.

As a literary genre that might be true, but I see no reason to limit a GM's options that way. He could well set it up so that action in both universes is important.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by thrash

Fair enough. As an aside, Girls und Panzer runs in a seinen magazine, the same one that publishes the manga adaptations of two of the series I referenced (KonoSuba and Re:Zero).

I was vaguely aware that it has a manga version, but I've only seen the anime (the main series and the OVA; I only just learned about the movie).

[safisher]

Does this deal at all with historical portal worlds, such as Diana Gabaldon's Outlander books and the TV series? For that matter, does it deal with the Stranger Things type of dimensions?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

As a literary genre that might be true, but I see no reason to limit a GM's options that way. He could well set it up so that action in both universes is important.

Could, but that would be a case that would call for substantially more handling! If it overlaps with the possession we were discussing, anyway, obviously it's pretty simple to walk in and out of the Wardrobe as needed. But how do you sensibly price being able to swap between two bodies in mostly non-overlapping spheres?

Possession for the swap itself is not too tricky, but the standard 'buy only the more expensive body' thing is a mess when you're going to have situations that the more expensive body can't be applied to because they're happening in a separate world!

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

What is clear is that Isekai is by no means a genre exclusive to Japanese or Eastern fiction. The genre has been around in the West for a large period of time under other names. Fantasy examples include the Barsoom series, or Stranger in a Strange Land (I almost feel as if this was a translation from Japanese to English). But there are what we would call literary works that fall under this genre too: Alice in Wonderland, The Divine Comedy, Chronicles of Narnia, Myth of Gilgamesh, Wizard of Oz, The Odyssey, and Peter Pan are all beloved classics that can be called Isekai.

I find some of those examples questionable. Stranger in a Strange Land doesn't involve anyone travelling to Mars; its protagonist was born on Mars and raised by Martians, but the story is his coming to Earth, which is kind of a reverse of portal fantasy. And while the scenes of Archangels Foster and Digby in heaven are fantasy, most of the story is a science fictional exploration of the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis. The Odyssey has Odysseus travelling around among a succession of remote realms with fantastic creatures and societies, but they don't seem to constitute either a single realm or a realm separate from the mundane seas (even if they aren't all an elaborate made-up series of adventures that Odysseus is telling Nausicaa's people), and at least half the story is Odysseus back home in Ithaca seeking revenge on Penelope's suitors. I haven't read Gilgamesh, but I didn't have the impression it took place in a portal realm.

The author seems to accept the split that high fantasy takes place in a secondary world, but low fantasy takes place on modern earth with hidden magic. I think that's at best an oversimplification. I went into this in detail in GURPS Fantasy, but for a quick summary, Fritz Leiber's Fafhrd/Grey Mouser stories take place on Newhon, but seem to be clearly low fantasy, whereas C.S. Lewis's That Hideous Strength takes place on Earth, but seems to be high fantasy, culminating in a descent of the planetary intelligences of Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupter, and Saturn to England; I could offer other examples as well. I think high/low is a matter partly of tone, and partly of how close a story is to myth as opposed to history. In any case, and getting back to the point, I think that by definition portal fantasy takes place in a secondary world (though it has people from a primary world going there), but it's perfectly possible for it to be both closer to history than to myth, and "low" in tone.

(As a side note, it occurred to me while I was writing that both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings take place entirely in a secondary world, Middle-Earth. But within the narrative, Bilbo and Frodo are functionally "modern men," residents of the Shire, which is effectively Edwardian England, going on journeys into the realms of legend, and coming back transformed by them—portal fantasies without an overt portal anywhere.)

[SteamBub]

Originally Posted by thrash

Others have characters that are trapped in literal game worlds (.hack, Sword Art Online), while their bodies in reality languish in comas.

You forgot the best "trap in an MMO" series, Log Horizon. Out of all of them, the author had experience with Everquest and so the characters within the story act like MMO players. A more silly example is Overlord. It's where a dystopian future has a D&D-like VRMMO shutting down. When it did the main character went a fantasy world with his evil munchkin mooks from the game.