No Fine Manipulators and No Arms

[Anthony]

Currently, if you want to play a wolf (4 legs, cannot stand on its hind legs) you take NFM and 4 legs (total -25), whereas if you want to play a bear (4 legs, can stand on its hind legs) you take NFM and semi-upright (total -40). This seems wrong -- the bear is getting a bigger discount for something that's better.

My tentative thought: NFM changes the value of semi-upright and one arm to [-5]; if you have no arms, it is worth [-40] total. This does change the point value of all quadrupeds, though. Maybe add some 10 point advantage, such as:
Quadruped Balance: you roll vs skill, not skill-2, to kick. You get +4 to DX and DX-based skill rolls to keep your feet or avoid being knocked down (recovering from a kick or pounce, resisting a takedown or slam).

[ericthered]

The bear should also take 4 legs, and the wolf should take horizontal (-10 points)

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by ericthered

The bear should also take 4 legs, and the wolf should take horizontal (-10 points)

Hm. I'm not convinced that semi-upright requires you to take 4 legs, the bear on B456 doesn't have it, but yes, I'd forgotten about horizontal (and oops, semi-upright is only -5).

[whswhs]

The wolf seems to have Extra Legs (Three or four legs) [5], Horizontal [-10]], and No Fine Manipulators [-30], for a net -35 points.

The Bear seems to have Extra Legs (Three or four legs) [5], Ham-Fisted 2 [-10], Semi-Upright [-5], and to have sold back its base two arms [-40] but bought them again with the Temporary Disadvantage No Extra Legs, -5% [38]. That looks like a net -12 points.

I'm not sure that's right, as it seems to give the bear rather too small a negative cost compared with the wolf, but that's my first try at doing it de novo.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by whswhs

The wolf seems to have Extra Legs (Three or four legs) [5], Horizontal [-10]], and No Fine Manipulators [-30], for a net -35 points.

The Bear seems to have Extra Legs (Three or four legs) [5], Ham-Fisted 2 [-10], Semi-Upright [-5], and to have sold back its base two arms [-40] but bought them again with the Temporary Disadvantage No Extra Legs, -5% [38]. That looks like a net -12 points.

I'm not sure that's right, as it seems to give the bear rather too small a negative cost compared with the wolf, but that's my first try at doing it de novo.

The bear doesn't have ham-fisted, it has no fine manipulators. 'You have no body parts more agile than paws or hooves'.

Both semi-upright and horizontal should probably include "your forelimbs can function as legs" and thus make extra legs unnecessary. Note that Vermiform (B263) does not include Horizontal.

[Flyndaran]

Pandas are unique for evolving a pseudo-thumb. So they may qualify for ham-fisted, but not any other bears.

[AlexanderHowl]

Then they could not qualify for No Fine Manipulators.

[JoelSammallahti]

The bear in Dungeon Fantasy has Ham-Fisted, because it's a crazy fantasy bear.

There are a few problems with these morphology traits; I think they weren't quite fully thought through when 4e was in production. For example, Horizontal is -10 but there are no negative effects for it if you have claws. Some of the Martial Arts rules pertaining to these traits also get weird if you have unusual combinations instead of the typical Extra Legs, NFM and Horizontal, if I recall correctly. Also, quadrupeds' front claw attacks are listed as punches (thr-1 damage, no penalty) rather than kicks (thr damage, -2 to attack) even though they're done with legs, which is something I griped about years ago, obsessive nerd style. :D

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by JoelSammallahti

The bear in Dungeon Fantasy has Ham-Fisted, because it's a crazy fantasy bear.

Not in my copy (pdf)..

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Both semi-upright and horizontal should probably include "your forelimbs can function as legs" and thus make extra legs unnecessary. Note that Vermiform (B263) does not include Horizontal.

If you don't have Extra Legs you can't tripod if you lose one. You can have four legs and not the Extra Legs advantage. If, when you lose a leg you fall down, you don't have Extra Legs.