Questions about shields, DR, Cover DR, health, damage, etc.

[Boge]

I didn't want to hijack another thread, but I have more questions now.

In the basic book, a medium shield shows DB2, weight 15, DR 7, HP40. In Low Tech, it's a lot different, DB2, Weight 14, DR4, HP20. Which is the correct stats?

Also, there is DR and then Cover DR. I guess you use DR before the shield takes damage? Does it only take damage if the damage exceeds it's DR?

If the damage exceeds the Cover DR, the player takes damage? Does the shield still take all of that damage too? For instance, a shield has DR of 4 and a cover DR of 9. The blow does 15 damage. Where does all the damage go?

Once a shield drops below 1/3 health, the book says (optional) it's effectiveness is halved. Does that mean the DB is halved, or is the users block skill halved? Once it reaches 0hp, it no longer provides DB bonus. Can I still block with it normally without the DB bonus until it's -HP?

[Nereidalbel]

Low Tech numbers are much more realistic for all gear.

A shield's DR is only used if you're using the optional rule of damage to shields, and you only roll damage against shields if a block succeeds by the shield's DB or less.

Cover DR is used when you're not using damage to shields, and success by DB or less has damage rolled, with damage in excess of the shield's cover DR being dealt to the wielder. Of course, armor still applies its normal DR value.

At less than 1/3 HP, shields have halved DB and are less effective at bashing. Your skill is unaffected, however.

[hal]

As has been mentioned numerous times in the past...

GURPS Shields are largely unscathed after a fight with a ST 10 warrior, because they can't inflict sufficient damage past the DR 7 listed in the original GURPS 4e books. Historically, shields were pretty beat up by the end of a battle, and in some instances, the shields were split or hacked up pretty badly.

A DR of 4 allows a ST 10 warrior using a weapon dealing 1d6+1, a roughly 50/50 chance of inflicting SOME damage against the shield's DR of 4, and after maybe 10 or so hits before it is rendered useless. Steel rimmed shields on the other hand MIGHT have a higher DR against attacks against the rim, but when attacked by something like an ax blade or curved weapon - even the surface of the shield would take a beating despite the steel rim.

Then there is the cheap option, where the shield's stats would be even lower than the given values.

Note that the rules in GURPS for an inanimate object is such that its HP equals the cube root of the weight x 8. For a 15 lb object, that works out to 19.7 hit points, or rounded up, 20. Contrast that with the original rules and see where it gets you. ;)

As for the 1/3rd hit points remaining rule? That DR 4 HP 20 shield, would function at full effectiveness provided its remaining hit points was greater than 20/3 (or 6 pts). Once it hits 6 points, it is less than 1/3rd points remaining, and its DR is halved, as is its DB. Once you go into the negative values, the Shield's HT stat is rolled against until it fails, and becomes totally useless.

[Anthony]

The numbers in Basic don't make sense given the rest of the system, but there's something to be said for incidental impacts (succeed by less than DB) being less damaging to a shield than a deliberate attack.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Hellboy

Is there? It's getting hit full power either way.

Not usually. With a melee strike, you're aiming at a particular position in space, if the blow is intercepted earlier, later, or at a bad angle, you aren't going to get full power against that target. I guess that could be the issue of it only hitting by DB margin.

[Tomsdad]

The effects on damage for Reach 1+ weapons in CC is already covered in the long weapons in CC rules in Martial Arts, Swung weapons get a penalty Thrust weapons don't.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Anthony

The numbers in Basic don't make sense given the rest of the system, but there's something to be said for incidental impacts (succeed by less than DB) being less damaging to a shield than a deliberate attack.

Originally Posted by Anthony

Not usually. With a melee strike, you're aiming at a particular position in space, if the blow is intercepted earlier, later, or at a bad angle, you aren't going to get full power against that target. I guess that could be the issue of it only hitting by DB margin.

I think for me there are just so many different scenarios that can involve getting your shield in between you and the attack that I'd hesitate to say that Success by DB or less means the attack was significantly weakened due to less than optimal positioning. Ultimately you, your shield, your attacker and their weapon are all moving around at the same time.

And on top of that there's already a hefty random factor in rolling damage anyway I'd happily subsume this possible effect into.

I'd happily just say rolling a 2 or 3 on 1d+1 could be described as a glancing blow partly down to this, and a result of 6 or 7 would be hitting just right at the most effective point of your attack


I have to say when it comes to blocking I don't assume a block of more than DB MOS doesn't involve the shield contacting the weapon, just that it was skillfully enough to deflect the weapon without risking damage to the shield.

Hence the use of the qualifier "squarely" on pg484.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Hellboy

Hm... maybe the option should exist to take a damage penalty in lieu of a skill penalty? Like with a range 2 weapon that is -8 to skill, maybe you could hit at -6 to skill for -1 to damage, -4 to skill for -2 to damage, -2 to skill for -3 to damage or no skill penalty for -4 damage?

I see what your saying you're forced to choose which area you lose efficiency in while using the weapon in a suboptimal situation (hitting or damaging). Ultimately though at this level of detail I'd be looking at individual weapons and how they go about things.

Give it go see if you like it.