Dwarves and Axes

[Kax]

Nothing wrong with shifting your hand on the axe haft and using the axe blade or pick point as a fist load on the goblin.

[Mister Negative]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Yep. narrow passages call for long thrusting weapons, not short chopping ones. You can use a polearm with an appropriate head if you really want to keep the "axe" element.



I also thing that dwarf-tunnel fighters should carry around portable fortifications they can fight behind.

Maybe goblins and kobolds typically use spears in tunnels, so the axes were used in response, to chop through shafts? Then the typically higher dwarven resilience and armor would overmatch the goblins and kobolds in closer fighting?

Or maybe orcs and the like are pretty tough, and thrust-impaling damage wasn't cutting the mustard against them, so striking blows that severed or shattered limbs was more important than being able to stab at the vitals?

Or maybe they just know that cutting down trees will wind up the elves, so they use axes just to annoy them?

Or, maybe the utility of an axe with a hammer on the back of the head, and a spiked tip is just the dwarf equivalent of a Swiss Army knife?

[Kax]

Originally Posted by Mister Negative

Or, maybe the utility of an axe with a hammer on the back of the head, and a spiked tip is just the dwarf equivalent of a Swiss Army knife?

That's what i do with my dwarves; an axe with both a back- and thrusting spike, and a hammer head that fits over the spike for fighting skeletons. Oh, and a butt-spike.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by Mister Negative

Or, maybe the utility of an axe with a hammer on the back of the head, and a spiked tip is just the dwarf equivalent of a Swiss Army knife?

They already have those; modular contrivances with several uses. One had a hollow shaft to fit a saw. Dwarven metelurgy can surely make that even if humans can't in your verse. It can also if I recall alternate the head for various purposes.

When you think about it, a trench spade is a more natural weapon for dwarves then an ax. Possibly though Tolkien had in mind something like an ice ax with a pick on one end of the head, an edge on the other, and a prong to probe the ice on the butt. Or perhaps like a fire ax as underground combat resembles room to room fighting.

In any case they have stuff even more versatile then what you are proposing.

I got a tomahawk for Christmas that actually is a multitool. The haft has a number of blades and the head is a serviceable hammer. The alternate side of the head is a hatchet blade, however it is to short to give leverage in actually using it as a hatchet.

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

Or perhaps like a fire ax as underground combat resembles room to room fighting.

The classic fire axe is a pretty standard single bitted axe with a slight bit of S-curve on the handle, and a flat back. Modern ones tend to have a pick or adze opposite the axeblade. It's for taking down walls and breaking in doors. The s-curve makes it easier to work with while crawling in turnouts...

And then there's the Halligan - which combines crowbar, pick, and adze (I prefer the adze opposite the pick, but most have them at right angles)... and it's a prying/pulling tool. Still, the combination is pretty spiff for opening cars, houses, and skulls.

Originally Posted by jason taylor

The alternate side of the head is a hatchet blade, however it is to short to give leverage in actually using it as a hatchet.

Hatchets (as opposed to longer axes) don't rely on leverage much, anyway. It's increasing the mass and reducing the impact zone that gives them their cut. The wedge effect is also useful.

In essence, if the hatchet's hammer side is facing opposite on the same end, it's going to work just well as a hatchet as a hammer - because it's not the lever length that matters in either case.

You don't fell trees with a hatchet, and you don't split your planks using a full 3' long axe... unless you're desperate. Hatchets are for small wood - pulling branches, splitting small logs, serving as the wedge to a second used as a hammer for splitting medium logs... and sometimes even being misused as a froe (which is a leverage use)...

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

The classic fire axe is a pretty standard single bitted axe with a slight bit of S-curve on the handle, and a flat back. Modern ones tend to have a pick or adze opposite the axeblade. It's for taking down walls and breaking in doors. The s-curve makes it easier to work with while crawling in turnouts...

And then there's the Halligan - which combines crowbar, pick, and adze (I prefer the adze opposite the pick, but most have them at right angles)... and it's a prying/pulling tool. Still, the combination is pretty spiff for opening cars, houses, and skulls.


Hatchets (as opposed to longer axes) don't rely on leverage much, anyway. It's increasing the mass and reducing the impact zone that gives them their cut. The wedge effect is also useful.

In essence, if the hatchet's hammer side is facing opposite on the same end, it's going to work just well as a hatchet as a hammer - because it's not the lever length that matters in either case.

You don't fell trees with a hatchet, and you don't split your planks using a full 3' long axe... unless you're desperate. Hatchets are for small wood - pulling branches, splitting small logs, serving as the wedge to a second used as a hammer for splitting medium logs... and sometimes even being misused as a froe (which is a leverage use)...

Tolkien often refers to Dwarfaxes as mattocks which are a generic form of multipurpose double axes with an adze or pick on one of the heads. A close match to what he might have had in mind is a dolabra which is an Italian miners ax that was also used as a Roman entrenching tool and for dispatching sacrifices. Romans never had a taste for it as a weapon but would have used it as such if caught offguard by a commando raid. A Dwarf mattock makes more sense as something for living in mountains and caves and mining, as well as being something useful for doorbreaking when fighting underground. It may have been as iconic to them as both a tool and a weapon as kukris are to Nepali.

[jason taylor]

Originally Posted by ak_aramis

Hatchets (as opposed to longer axes) don't rely on leverage much, anyway. It's increasing the mass and reducing the impact zone that gives them their cut. The wedge effect is also useful.

In essence, if the hatchet's hammer side is facing opposite on the same end, it's going to work just well as a hatchet as a hammer - because it's not the lever length that matters in either case.

You don't fell trees with a hatchet, and you don't split your planks using a full 3' long axe... unless you're desperate. Hatchets are for small wood - pulling branches, splitting small logs, serving as the wedge to a second used as a hammer for splitting medium logs... and sometimes even being misused as a froe (which is a leverage use)...

I mean the haft is no more then a hand's width. It is essentially a wedge.

[ak_aramis]

Originally Posted by jason taylor

I mean the haft is no more then a hand's width. It is essentially a wedge.

So? that's still a hand-axe. Extra mass in hand, and concentration to a 0.5mm x 10cm edge (if dull) is still a much better chance as weapon, and hand-axes are amongst the oldest of tools.

[jason taylor]

What if Dwarves regularly took on campaign, a mattock, a rope, a few magic flares or other light giving devices (you notice how a number of the fireworks ordered for Bilbo's party were shipped from the Lonely Mountain; perhaps they had such things for working and fighting underground).

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Narrow passages with low ceilings and sharp bends call for _short_ thrusting weapons.

On the other hand, Dwarves sometimes fight above ground, and short thrusting weapons are of less utility there, and Dwarven stature makes long thrusting weapons doubtful against larger folk. So that might be one reason for axes (though it would be just as good a reason for a short stabbing sword).