Does DFRPG more and more resemble a super hero game to you

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by lachimba

But sometimes I look at DFRPG and it looks like a super hero game skinned with Dungeon Fantasy.

The superhero games I've played have been very different in style. They've adhered to genre tropes that are very unlike dungeon-crawling, and which have made the whole "what are we doing" part of the game completely different.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by johndallman

The superhero games I've played have been very different in style. They've adhered to genre tropes that are very unlike dungeon-crawling, and which have made the whole "what are we doing" part of the game completely different.

I think this is the biggest thing.

In the following I'm going to specifically use the term "dungeon delving", because SJG has a specific scope in mind for things labeled DF that is narrower than what people keep talking about. Which means there should be two words, so I'm making up a second one for the sake of clarity.

You can have low powered super heroes, or skip the "Super" entirely but it would still be super-heroes. Power level is not the definition of Superheroes, it's just most common to have a 300+ point power level for Superheroes.

Your characters might broker a peace deal between hobgoblin tribes, recruit some as followers or murder everyone and take their stuff. That's all dungeon delving scoped activities. That's not stuff that I ever associate with superheroes - superheros don't negotiate a peace between warring nations, diplomats do. Superheroes very much don't go wandering into the Jokers lair, kill the Joker, and offer all the Joker's minions jobs carrying their stuff. And killing people and taking their stuff as a main activity is way outside the superhero wheelhouse.

Instead of those diplomatic negotions, Superheros might rush to retrieve vital evidence needed for the peace process from the fortress of Doctor War, and fight monstrous battle robots, solve puzzles, and escape death traps the entire time - and your players will joke about it being a dungeon delve because they can recognize the genre shift.

Having a group of powerful fantasy characters who storm the gates of Hell, fight demons, take their stuff, and eventually work their way around to fighting the Devil Himself isn't super-heroy. It's just a particularly on-fire dungeon with terrible Sanctity and a legendary End Boss. Even if they're doing it to Save The World and rescue captives and everything it doesn't make them super-heroes. All kinds of heroes in all kinds of genres Save The World, it's a defining activity.

I've actually run games that were sort of aiming to be D&D but using the Mutants and Masterminds system. It was an experiment that the entire group signed on for, and was done basically because we'd spent money on Mutants and Masterminds books but wanted to do some more dungeon crawling.

It changed the feel of the game in the sense that changing from D&D to GURPS would change the feel of the game; it didn't make it feel like everyone should wear capes and masks. [1] There was a certain stylistic change, but it's like World of Warcraft vs Final Fantasy Online - they are fantasy MMORPGs with classes, races, and levels, where you go grind monsters so you can run dungeons to grind monsters to kill boss monsters to grind monsters repeat.

[1]Or trenchcoats and bandoliers with too many Having a powerful fantasy character who pouches on them, depending on the era.

[Bruno]

Even more elementally, superhero games are reactive but have a lot of flexibility where dungeon delvers of all stripes (hack and slash or not) are proactive and often highly constrained in choice of actions (the iconic dungeon is nothing but an attempt to remove choices).

I find there's a lot more in common with Monster Hunters and Supers than DF and Supers. DF and After The End, on the other hand, are rather more similar.

[lachimba]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I find there's a lot more in common with Monster Hunters and Supers than DF and Supers. DF and After The End, on the other hand, are rather more similar.

I don't, nor have I ever, run a MH game so I have no point of comparison.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by lachimba

I don't, nor have I ever, run a MH game so I have no point of comparison.

Ever watched Supernatural?

[tbone]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Even more elementally, superhero games are reactive but have a lot of flexibility where dungeon delvers of all stripes (hack and slash or not) are proactive and often highly constrained in choice of actions (the iconic dungeon is nothing but an attempt to remove choices).

That's an interesting take. Delvers seek out the dungeons, gear up, and march down the steps. Superheroes (in some series, anyway) hang out at Justice HQ and wait for the emergency calls to come in.

(Naturally, there are mixed or even reversed approaches out there: delver types who wait around their keep until the king's men come to report a dragon sighting or the townspeople panic over noises in the catacombs; and supers who actively seek out crime, or even find non-crime/non-emergency problems to tackle with superpowers. But I think the distinction you make is often true.)

[lachimba]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Ever watched Supernatural?

No, and I imagine its irrelevant if I had.

I own the MH pdfs and I intend to run it one day.

I have no experience of what it feels like.in play. Watching a tv show wont answer that question.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by tbone

That's an interesting take. Delvers seek out the dungeons, gear up, and march down the steps. Superheroes (in some series, anyway) hang out at Justice HQ and wait for the emergency calls to come in.

It's less obvious in superhero *games* than in the genre as a whole, but I think this is related to one of the other big differences. Superheroes have a job - it may be an informal self imposed one, but ultimately they are doing this stuff for the benefit of others. Dungeon delvers are entrepreneurs - sure other people may appreciate the results but ultimately they are doing this for themselves.

I think this is why superhero characters can be fairly static, but dungeon fantasy virtually requires power growth. Superheroes are successful if the public is saved, but delvers need to gain something for themselves to feel successful. Which I suppose is why this gets a little blurred in the gaming version - *players* tend to insist on tangible rewards there too.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Bruno

I find there's a lot more in common with Monster Hunters and Supers than DF and Supers. DF and After The End, on the other hand, are rather more similar.

That isn't surprising:

1. 
   
   • Out-of-the-box GURPS Monster Hunters: "High-powered (400-point) champions of Good hunt down and defeat threats to Civilization that are too secretive or powerful for the usual forces of Order to contain or defeat."
     
     
   • Out-of-the-box GURPS Supers: "High-powered (250- to 2,000-point, typically 500-point) champions of Civilization stand in the way of enemies of Order that are too powerful for Law to bring to justice and imprison."
   
   
2. 
   
   • Out-of-the-box GURPS After the End: "A ragtag band of tough survivors, some of them mutants, wander through ruins in a lawless world, fighting enemies and accumulating gear."
     
     
   • Out-of-the-box GURPS Dungeon Fantasy: "A random company of tough adventurers, some of them nonhuman, wander through lawless dungeons and wilderness, fighting enemies and accumulating wealth."

(And the latter similarity is nothing new . . . Gamma World was little more than post-apocalypse D&D. You could make a case for examples of the former, too; Hunter: The Reckoning and In Nomine can be run in superhero mode or monster-hunting mode without much effort.)

[Rasputin]

Originally Posted by Kromm

And the latter similarity is nothing new . . . Gamma World was little more than post-apocalypse D&D.

Indeed, there has been the assertion that D&D itself is post-apocalyptic. An apocalypse is a major plot point in the Dragonlance campaign setting.