Dissonant Rites

[tbug]

When a Redeemed demon uses an infernal Rite he gains a point of dissonance (p. IN60). Why? Is this because the Essence is coming from Hell? If a demon just gives him a point of Essence he doesn't get dissonance, so there isn't anything intrinsic to Essence from demons that causes it. A lot if infernal Rites are nasty, but some of them aren't necessarily wrong or evil in and of themselves.

It's implied that Lilith can be bribed to give Rites to Outcasts (Superiors: Lilith, p. 22). Do Outcasts gain a point of dissonance every time they use these Rites, even if they're only performing acts that also support their (former) Superior's Word?

[Rocket Man]

There's no "only" about it -- by performing an infernal Rite, they are, in a small way, reinforcing Hell's presence in the world and benefitting from it. That's a very dissonant behavior for an angel and one that will draw some questions from the Redeemed's Superior and/or Dominic if it's noticed.

Imagine if you're an SS man who suddenly renounces Hitler, flees Fortress Europe and escapes to England .... but periodically accepts a few pounds from Fifth Column agents to put up some pro-Hitler posters in the London streets. Do you think British Intelligence is going to see that as all that harmless?

[tbug]

Thanks for the response. I still don't understand.

Hanatiel is an Outcast Mercurian, formerly of Fire. He makes a deal with Lilith to get rid of some Discord, and while he's working for her he gets her Rites and dissonance conditions. He finds out about some people cruelly abusing other people, so he frees the abused who are tied up in the basement and punishes the cruel. By Freedom's Rites this gives him two points of Essence. I don't understand how this makes him the equivalent of a Nazi. (I'm not saying that it doesn't; I'm saying that I don't understand.)

Are you saying that the rule is that any angel (Outcast or not) using an infernal Rite always gains a point of dissonance? As long as I know what the rule is I don't actually need to understand the reasoning behind it, but I wasn't sure that I could infer the whole general rule from something specific to the Redeemed.

Anyway, thanks for the answer. :)

[Rocket Man]

As I understand it -- and I could be mistaken -- any angel using an infernal Rite for any reason, however good it may seem, is committing a dissonant act because they are both accepting power from Hell and sending power to it.

Lilith's Word, Freedom, is a tricky one, not least because we're so used to thinking of freedom as something benign in all situations. But what she really represents is freedom used selfishly: the freedom to say "I'll do whatever I want whenever I want and to hell with the rest of you!"

Now, I'm not saying that by freeing the victims, he did something bad. Quite the opposite, obviously. But the way he did it guaranteed that some power would be sent to Lilith -- who also is the beneficiary of a successful Freedom Rite -- thus giving her more power to pursure her own selfish agenda on Earth. That gives Hell an additional edge on Earth, however tiny that edge may be. And that's an un-angelic thing to do, hence, dissonant, even for an Outcast.

Had he freed the abused and punished the cruel without cutting a deal with Lilith, he would have had nothing to worry about. Well, unless he committed violence against a human in the course of his actions (an un-Mercurian thing). But that's another story altogehter.

[tbug]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

As I understand it -- and I could be mistaken -- any angel using an infernal Rite for any reason, however good it may seem, is committing a dissonant act because they are both accepting power from Hell and sending power to it.

I've been looking for a rule that says this, and I haven't found one. I don't mind making a house rule, but I'd like to know whether or not that's what I'm doing.

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

Now, I'm not saying that by freeing the victims, he did something bad. Quite the opposite, obviously. But the way he did it guaranteed that some power would be sent to Lilith -- who also is the beneficiary of a successful Freedom Rite -- thus giving her more power to pursure her own selfish agenda on Earth.

How is he doing this? In what way is she gaining power? What if this wasn't the mission that she'd given him, but something that he did in his time off? If she just showed up and gave him the Essence instead of doing it through a Rite then it wouldn't be dissonant, but is it really any different? I reread the section in the GMG and I still don't understand how Rites actually work. The Essence transfer seems like magic, or something.

[JCD]

Okay, Ralph the Damned gets a point of Essence in Hell. It's tortured off of him and spends a few days getting shifted from demon to demon until it hits that Sinkhole of Selfishness, Lilith, where it resides for a few days, soaking up her nastiness.

Liberace, Outcast of Taste does the Freedom rite (genuflecting in Service to Freedom by his intent and action). She sends this 'tainted' bit of Essence into his soul.

An angel who cuts the cuffs off a prisoner has no moral approbation. Liberace is submitting his service by intent to Hell, for a selfish price to boot! By his action, he is saying 'I serve you'. Add that to the origin of the Essence and I could easily rationalize the taint.

This is why even an Archangel could get his halo in a twist at their Servitors gaining Essence from another Archangel, which is why all angels don't get all Rites, which strategically would rock for angels...at the cost of unfocusing their efforts. WAR wants the service, not have his people dancing the night away for Novalis.

YMMV

[banditangel]

Doing a rite (the raw physical actions) doesn't generate essence. Anyone can go dancing for a few hours, but unless they're in favour with Novalis, it doesn't produce essence. And unless they MAKE it an act of dedication to Novalis, they don't get the essence.

Basically, it's an acknowledgement of the fact that Lilith is one of your bosses. She may not be first and foremost, but if you're doing her "little favors" like this... and you're in favor with her enough to even HAVE the rites... that's a really huge warning sign.

By tying your very essence (heh) to a Demon Prince, you're intrinsically flirting with a fall. You're saying "I'm willing to ACTIVELY (and knowingly!) strengthen your power" to a Demon Prince.

----

Imagine dedicating this gorgeous painting you just finished to Lilith. And she helped pay for your art exhibit. And then you give her the painting as a gift. Would you expect Eli to be happy with you, since it's creation and art?

Now, if Lilith stole your painting, or profited from the exhibit without your knowledge... that would be equivalant to carrying out the physical actions of the rite WITHOUT dedicating it to Lilith and receiving essence

----

The FAQ makes it clear you can choose NOT to perform a rite; specifically, the automatic bonus essence Asmodeus hands out is a rite, and you can forgo it. Thus the basis of a rite being a deliberate dedication, not just a set of physical actions.

[alexondria]

I have no idea how canon this is, but I've always thought of it as a kickback. Performing a rite is a bit like making a commissioned sale. The superior gets some essence from your activity from the symphony to support their work and in return you get a point from them to encourage you to keep doing it.

[tbug]

Originally Posted by JCD

Okay, Ralph the Damned gets a point of Essence in Hell. It's tortured off of him and spends a few days getting shifted from demon to demon until it hits that Sinkhole of Selfishness, Lilith, where it resides for a few days, soaking up her nastiness.

Liberace, Outcast of Taste does the Freedom rite (genuflecting in Service to Freedom by his intent and action). She sends this 'tainted' bit of Essence into his soul.

An angel who cuts the cuffs off a prisoner has no moral approbation. Liberace is submitting his service by intent to Hell, for a selfish price to boot! By his action, he is saying 'I serve you'. Add that to the origin of the Essence and I could easily rationalize the taint.

Good example! Thank-you!

So supposing Liberace doesn't have the Rite, but needs some Discord removed and agrees to free some prisoners for Lilith in exchange for the service and some Essence. (An amazing deal, I know, but let's assume it happens.) He's still submitting his service, and he's still getting that same Essence, but (afaict) there's no dissonance, right?

Regardless, I understand now how doing this service can be dissonant. I'm still not clear if this dissonance is RAW or a house rule.

Originally Posted by banditangel

Doing a rite (the raw physical actions) doesn't generate essence. Anyone can go dancing for a few hours, but unless they're in favour with Novalis, it doesn't produce essence. And unless they MAKE it an act of dedication to Novalis, they don't get the essence.

So is the Word of Flowers strengthened by the dancing regardless of whether or not you have the Rite?

[JCD]

Originally Posted by tbug

Good example! Thank-you!

So supposing Liberace doesn't have the Rite, but needs some Discord removed and agrees to free some prisoners for Lilith in exchange for the service and some Essence. (An amazing deal, I know, but let's assume it happens.) He's still submitting his service, and he's still getting that same Essence, but (afaict) there's no dissonance, right?

Regardless, I understand now how doing this service can be dissonant. I'm still not clear if this dissonance is RAW or a house rule.



So is the Word of Flowers strengthened by the dancing regardless of whether or not you have the Rite?

Hmm. It's getting very subtle at that point. In both the case of the dancing and the case of the Discord stripping, yes and no. Lilith is always strengthened by acts of Freedom, whether it is the French Revolution (Not a great thing) to the Fall of the Berlin Wall (A reasonably good thing). BUT, those events were natural. Like a tabelaux or picture which just worked out perfect. With a dance to Novalis, or dedicating a prison break to Lilith, you are creating a service to her; essentially (for you old timers) it's the equivilent of saying "Body and Souls for my Lord Arioch".

Now if you are TRADING a service for stuff...I could say no dissonance, though it would weigh heavily on the soul of the Angel in question. It is more a *** for tat, not a homage or dedication. But I could see a GM ruling the other way as well. As an off the cuff rule, I might have a Malakim of Destiny wig out if you spend the 'tainted' Essence as ringing off key. But only if you are a jerk of a player.