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Old 12-23-2017, 08:24 PM   #1
Sorenant
 
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Default Which advantage for the protégé of the local Lord? (and other questions)

I saw a similar question being discussed elsewhere and because I was thinking about Portal Fantasy at the time it got me to wonder the same thing.

Say our Portal Fantasy heroes are sent to some Fantasy world and there they are met by a legendary teacher who guides them through the first steps but because reasons he can't stay with them for too long and decides to place them under the protection of an old student of his, the local Noble. Said Noble is all too happy to take them as an extended family (maybe cultural reasons, maybe respect for his master and it's not unheard of disciples forming fraternities).
So the Noble would provide shelter, food, training and, if needed, equipments to the heroes. In turn, he might ask services from them sometime later, as he would from his sons. I think for all intends and purposes it's is not unlike they have been adopted by the Lord (albeit with no possibility to succeed him).

How would this be represented on GURPS? According to what I dug from old threads, a Noble would have Wealth, Status, Legal Enforcement Power and Legal Immunity but, except for Status, it doesn't seem to fit our heroes. They don't have any Wealth except for what the Lord gives them, not proven enough to enforce any law and doesn't have legal immunity strictly, more like nepotism.
Patron really seems to hit in the mark but this advantage is too vague for my tastes (by the way, is there some Pyramid article about it?), is it there any alternative? If not, any guideline to use it?


Totally unrelated to above but I've seem this unofficial errata for Low Tech made by the author and would like to ask if it still stands. Google didn't give me any post explicitly rejecting it but the Errata page doesn't contain it...

Still about Low Tech, p.102-103 says TL4 Plate armors required Arming Doublets to be donned and that these garments provided no DR but had light mail voiders to protect chinks. How would layering work in this case? Say I want to use a gambeson made of light layered cloth, couldn't it be crafted as arming garment? What about heavy mail, like haubergeon? Asking this because single layer sounds insufficient against enemies found in Fantasy settings like Orc and Ogres (even a moderately strong ST12 orc with an axe has 66% chance of penetrating medium plate).


Finally, in GURPS terms which GURPS terms describes these (1 2) armors from Witcher 3? I'd guess just differently fluffed mails under surcoats but what do I know?
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Old 12-23-2017, 08:36 PM   #2
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Default Re: Which advantage for the protégé of the local Lord? (and other questions)

The Noble would be a Patron as described here.
Claim to Hospitality is far more basic and does not go far enough for your proposed description.
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Old 12-23-2017, 08:51 PM   #3
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Default Re: Which advantage for the protégé of the local Lord? (and other questions)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
The Noble would be a Patron as described here.
Claim to Hospitality is far more basic and does not go far enough for your proposed description.
How would it be modeled? Assuming 150 starting points and knowing the King of Caithness is built on 303 points, a lesser noble (say a viscount or baron), the cheapest "A powerful individual" for [10] sounds about right. He would also have "extensive social or political power" for +50% and Equipment for +50% or +100%. All well until now but what's his frequency of appearance? The Lord has his own life and can't always be there to help with unusual needs (Fairly often, 9 or less, x1) but even when he's not there the PCs are enjoying his usual protection (Constantly, no roll, x4)?
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Old 12-23-2017, 09:04 PM   #4
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Default Re: Which advantage for the protégé of the local Lord? (and other questions)

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Originally Posted by Sorenant View Post
All well until now but what's his frequency of appearance? The Lord has his own life and can't always be there to help with unusual needs (Fairly often, 9 or less, x1) but even when he's not there the PCs are enjoying his usual protection (Constantly, no roll, x4)?
Freq is based on how often the effects are useful in the game.
You could stack Claim to Hospitality for the room and Board bit with a low freq.
Note that active duty types enjoy some basics even without having Patron or possibly Hospitality.
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Old 12-23-2017, 11:00 PM   #5
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Default Re: Which advantage for the protégé of the local Lord? (and other questions)

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Originally Posted by Sorenant View Post
[snip] what's his frequency of appearance? The Lord has his own life and can't always be there to help with unusual needs (Fairly often, 9 or less, x1) but even when he's not there the PCs are enjoying his usual protection (Constantly, no roll, x4)?
Remember that the Patron doesn't have to literally show up in person to help the PCs. If the Patron doesn't have the Secret limitation, their relationship to the PCs should be something that's known and respected. So if the PCs are being menaced by some local toughs, they could say "You'd better watch out! Baron [Insert Name Here] has our back! If you keep it up, you'll be in the stocks - or worse!". Then you could roll the Frequency of Appearance, and on a success, treat it as the toughs knowing the Baron, recognizing his relationship to the PCs, and respecting that, and backing down. Whereas if the roll fails, that could represent either them not knowing the Baron (maybe they aren't local toughs after all), not knowing the PCs' relationship to him ("Oh yeah? Prove it!"), or simply not respecting his authority ("The Baron? Don't make me laugh! He uses his iron maiden to store smoked hams!").

Or, you could handle such an interaction as a bonus on the PCs' relevant social skills (Intimidate to get some local toughs to back off, Diplomacy or Savoir-Faire to get help from another local noble, and so on), with the bonus based on the Patron's power level, but if the PCs roll fails, they have to make an immediate Frequency of Appearance roll to demonstrate if they actually do have the Baron's favor, and if that fails, the reaction level from a failed influence roll gets one level worse, or the Baron refuses their next request for help because they've been besmirching his good name, or something along those lines.
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Old 12-23-2017, 11:44 PM   #6
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Default Re: Which advantage for the protégé of the local Lord? (and other questions)

The utility of a noble patron depends on status and wealth (among other things). A Status 3 and Very Wealthy Lord is going to have less to offer than a Status 6 and Multimillionaire 2 Duke. The former probably only provides modest equipment and modest political support (+50% for each) while the latter can supply whatever equipment and political support needed (+100% for each).
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Old 12-26-2017, 06:38 PM   #7
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Default Re: Which advantage for the protégé of the local Lord? (and other questions)

Sorry for being so late with my replies! Holiday seasons was a factor but I also spent some time digging old threads about Patrons, Jobs and Claim to Hospitality to better understand the mechanics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
Freq is based on how often the effects are useful in the game.
You could stack Claim to Hospitality for the room and Board bit with a low freq.
Note that active duty types enjoy some basics even without having Patron or possibly Hospitality.
I'm a little hesitant to use Claim to Hospitality, mainly because by RAW it seems to scale with the availability around world, not only with the power of the host, so it leaves me unsure on how much points I should pay for it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
The utility of a noble patron depends on status and wealth (among other things). A Status 3 and Very Wealthy Lord is going to have less to offer than a Status 6 and Multimillionaire 2 Duke. The former probably only provides modest equipment and modest political support (+50% for each) while the latter can supply whatever equipment and political support needed (+100% for each).
Isn't political support enhancement unleveled? 100% would make it cost at least 10 points more expensive, I'm not sure it should be that costly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
Remember that the Patron doesn't have to literally show up in person to help the PCs. If the Patron doesn't have the Secret limitation, their relationship to the PCs should be something that's known and respected. So if the PCs are being menaced by some local toughs, they could say "You'd better watch out! Baron [Insert Name Here] has our back! If you keep it up, you'll be in the stocks - or worse!". Then you could roll the Frequency of Appearance, and on a success, treat it as the toughs knowing the Baron, recognizing his relationship to the PCs, and respecting that, and backing down. Whereas if the roll fails, that could represent either them not knowing the Baron (maybe they aren't local toughs after all), not knowing the PCs' relationship to him ("Oh yeah? Prove it!"), or simply not respecting his authority ("The Baron? Don't make me laugh! He uses his iron maiden to store smoked hams!").

Or, you could handle such an interaction as a bonus on the PCs' relevant social skills (Intimidate to get some local toughs to back off, Diplomacy or Savoir-Faire to get help from another local noble, and so on), with the bonus based on the Patron's power level, but if the PCs roll fails, they have to make an immediate Frequency of Appearance roll to demonstrate if they actually do have the Baron's favor, and if that fails, the reaction level from a failed influence roll gets one level worse, or the Baron refuses their next request for help because they've been besmirching his good name, or something along those lines.
So using the known connection to convince guards and servants of the Noble's lesser holdings to take you in for a night or so a possibility? It would be like built-in Claim to Hospitality, like suggested by Refplace, but with rolls and risks?

I'm experiencing difficulty grasping what Patron can do or not to me so I decided to go a little crazy and consider the following:
Say I have the support of a Viscount, Status 4, one level from Filthy Rich, Legal Immunity 3 and Legal Enforcement Power 3, summing up to [95]. If I were his son, I would have those advantages as potential advantage Heir costing [48] and enjoying half the benefits. My idea was to model a Patron costing around this and claim similar benefits. As in:
Patron (Lord, 10 points; 12 or less, x2; Equipments, More than Starting Wealth, +100%; Extensive Political Power, +50%) [50]
And for the Equipments I would claim about $10,000 (amount left after paying 80% for settled lifestyle on half the 100 times starting money), Enjoy Legal Immunity 1 and Legal Enforcement Power 1 and Status 2.
Regarding the cost of living, after reading this thread I think being a "retainer" to the Noble can be considered a job that supports the status I hold.

Does the above sounds too powerful? I found it neat enough but I definitely have bias...
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Old 12-27-2017, 03:48 PM   #8
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Default Re: Which advantage for the protégé of the local Lord? (and other questions)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorenant View Post
Isn't political support enhancement unleveled?
You're correct. Having influence "out of proportion to its wealth or point value" is worth a flat +50%.

Actually, I'd probably argue that your local lord probably doesn't qualify for that modifier. I'd say that, unless he's personally kind of a badass, as well as having that sort of influence, the Rank and Wealth he'll need to justify the Patron cost would be about right without the modifier.

Basically, I'd suggest there's two things that can really justify the +50% on a Patron for "out of proportion" - first, as I mentioned, if they're both personally very potent (a retired adventurer with 200 points under their belt in combat skills and magic items, for example, or a superhero), in addition to controlling significant political power. Or, second, if the political or social power they control is just out of proportion to other, similar advantages. Basic gives the example of the Pope, or the Governor of New York. I'd assume that those examples would be compared to, say, the head of the Anglican Church, or the Governor of Idaho, who would both have comparable levels of Rank, at least, but clearly less power overall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorenant
So using the known connection to convince guards and servants of the Noble's lesser holdings to take you in for a night or so a possibility?
I'd certainly allow that, yeah.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorenant
It would be like built-in Claim to Hospitality, like suggested by Refplace, but with rolls and risks?
Pretty much. A Claim to Hospitality, compared to a Patron, is going to be either cheaper, or cover a much more extensive area, but it's also more automatic, you don't have to roll a frequency of appearance for it. I wouldn't generally recommend taking overlapping Claims to Hospitality and Patrons, they'd probably end up being wasted points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorenant
I'm experiencing difficulty grasping what Patron can do or not to me so I decided to go a little crazy and consider the following:
Say I have the support of a Viscount, Status 4, one level from Filthy Rich, Legal Immunity 3 and Legal Enforcement Power 3, summing up to [95]. If I were his son, I would have those advantages as potential advantage Heir costing [48] and enjoying half the benefits. My idea was to model a Patron costing around this and claim similar benefits. As in:
Patron (Lord, 10 points; 12 or less, x2; Equipments, More than Starting Wealth, +100%; Extensive Political Power, +50%) [50]
And for the Equipments I would claim about $10,000 (amount left after paying 80% for settled lifestyle on half the 100 times starting money), Enjoy Legal Immunity 1 and Legal Enforcement Power 1 and Status 2.
That sounds like a decent approach, for sure. Remember that an heir would enjoy the halved benefits without having to roll frequency of appearance though, so it might be okay to bump up the Patron benefits by a bit to compensate for the fact that they won't always be available.
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Old 12-27-2017, 04:57 PM   #9
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Default Re: Which advantage for the protégé of the local Lord? (and other questions)

Patron plus Reputation favorite of Baron so you get better Reaction Rolls even if he isn't directly involved would work also.
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Old 12-27-2017, 06:09 PM   #10
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Default Re: Which advantage for the protégé of the local Lord? (and other questions)

I've always taken "could be helpful without actually intervening" (p. B73) to mean that mentioning the relationship tends to inspire favorable reactions even if the Patron doesn't actually take an active role in the adventure. That is, if you get a negative result on Frequency of Appearance, so Big Eddie doesn't actually provide anything like funds, gear, or helpers, that doesn't stop you from saying, "I work for Big Eddie," and getting some extra respect. That's not Big Eddie doing anything; that's you suggesting that Big Eddie might do something.
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