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Old 04-19-2018, 05:43 AM   #1
Revturkey
 
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Default Monsters!

Hi all, well...I finally grabbed a copy of the game before it vanishes forever from the shelves. I just had a skim through and noticed in the Monsters booklet that the points values of the creatures are missing. How is somebody new to the system (me) meant to choose what creatures to pit against what number of adventurers? I know from other games that this isn’t an exact science but any idea how I can gauge what to use without utterly overwhelming a party or making the challenge meaningless etc?

Any advice would be appreciated, thanks.
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Old 04-19-2018, 06:11 AM   #2
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Default Re: Monsters!

Monsters in GURPS aren't normally built like a character is. Even if they were, the number of CP is by no means a good or even adequate measure of their combat effectiveness or how they would compare to adventurers in such situations.

That said there is an article, It's a Threat! in Pyramid #3/77: Combat, that introduces a system to put numbers to the combat effectiveness of characters and monsters alike. This might be what you're looking for, although to be honest, I have never yet used it myself.
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Old 04-19-2018, 06:28 AM   #3
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Default Re: Monsters!

The CER system from "It's a Threat" assumes you have GURPS basic set. I don't know that it's of great value for someone who only owns DFRPG.

Encounter balance is tricky and even if you had point totals for the monsters, points are not a reliable indicator of combat performance. Further some monsters (see specter) are difficult to even threaten without one particular spell or trait. Others can be impossible to kill without knowing a weakness, so you might consider hidden lore skills as well.

If you can describe the PCs and the feel of the adventure you want to build, I can give pointers on what monsters to stock it with and how many.
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Old 04-19-2018, 07:37 AM   #4
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Default Re: Monsters!

On the subject of points as a gague of combat-i-ness:

Take a Bard and a Swashbuckler, two PCs, and therefore with character points on everything, and equal character point values.

The Swashbuckler simply has more points in straight-up-fight abilities than the Bard. The Bard has excellent social skills and reaction modifiers, but these don't parry sword blows and can't skewer the Swashbuckler. They're both 250 point characters. In a dungeon fight, the Swashbuckler is more dangerous. In a social encounter, the Bard is more dangerous. They are both 250 point characters.

Thieves are also 250 point characters, and they're nearly total noncombatants - but they'll blow through your locks and traps, find all your treasures wherever you hid it, and then carry it off to town to sell at a great markup, after picking your pocket mid-combat of that Healing potion while you were fending off the swashbuckler and being distracted by the bard.

Point values aren't "combat ability values". They're about "spotlight time".
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Old 04-19-2018, 10:32 AM   #5
Dalin
 
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Default Re: Monsters!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revturkey View Post
Hi all, well...I finally grabbed a copy of the game before it vanishes forever from the shelves. I just had a skim through and noticed in the Monsters booklet that the points values of the creatures are missing. How is somebody new to the system (me) meant to choose what creatures to pit against what number of adventurers? I know from other games that this isn’t an exact science but any idea how I can gauge what to use without utterly overwhelming a party or making the challenge meaningless etc?

Any advice would be appreciated, thanks.
As others have said, character points don't always map to combat effectiveness. Rather than follow a painstaking process, I start by quickly reviewing what I know about the PCs:
  • Good at melee?
  • How much damage can top weapons reliably dish out?
  • Spell mix? Utility or combat focus?
  • DR and defenses

Then I look at the monsters and compare DR, HP, attacks and special abilities. I just imagine the battle for a moment... can the party hurt it? Can it challenge the party? Any unusual requirements (e.g., high DR, immunities, etc.)? Usually eyeballing it lets me eliminate threats that are far too deadly or easy and then I fine tune the details at the table.

If I'm running a long game with consistent players and PCs, I get good at this, and then things start getting more simulationist without GM intervention. These days I'm mostly running one-shots or short adventures, often for new players, so I'm not a purist. I just want everyone to have a blast.

Finally, if I'm crafting an adventure for an unknown group of PCs with novice players, then I stick to the basics: no unusual requirements for victory or include the boss kryptonite earlier in the adventure. Better yet, I'll build the scene such that there are multiple paths to victory, some of which don't involve slaying the opponent. And, of course, some defeat options that don't require TPK.
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Old 04-19-2018, 12:33 PM   #6
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Default Re: Monsters!

I have to say as a guy who's been playing & GMing GURPS for 20+ years, matching monsters to players is all about practice.

One factor is that each group has it's own strengthens & weaknesses. If you have a fire mage in the party you have an edge against some enemies but almost useless against a Flame Lord (DF Monsters-1 p.15).

Go with trial & error to start and eventually, you will realize that it just 'clicks'.
However, when in doubt, put one less enemy rather than one more.

Also, check out the many adventures in the Pyramid magazines & Mirror of the Fire Demon.

Seeing how other adventures have balanced things will help you learn.
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Old 04-19-2018, 12:41 PM   #7
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Default Re: Monsters!

I'm off the mind in this sort of situation (GM doesn't really have a feel for 'balance' yet) to just go Old School*.

Just throw stuff together you like or hate or just think is cool or weird and see how the PCs handle it. A great example of OS feel is Peter's Felltower game, the PCs often end up retreating (even suffer a few near TPKs), but that's theme of Old School.



* And I hate Old School, so that should tell you something.
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Old 04-19-2018, 01:33 PM   #8
martinl
 
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Default Re: Monsters!

You can also add a hidden "escape hatch" and "double down" to every encounter.

Example
The Duke's Drawing Room
This room contains 23 leprous goblins, who attack with rusted weapons encrusted with filth and disease.
Escape Hatch: The Duke's Guards smash down the opposite door and attack the goblins from behind.
Double Down: Two of the remaining leprous goblins suddenly split asunder and the filth demons inside them attack the party.

Some kinds of players find this very obnoxious, however.
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Old 04-19-2018, 01:47 PM   #9
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Default Re: Monsters!

Quote:
Originally Posted by martinl View Post
Double Down: Two of the remaining leprous goblins suddenly split asunder and the filth demons inside them attack the party.
Also known as "Suddenly it's a phased boss fight!"

I have done this. My players detected what I was up to, but they found it entertaining anyways.

I recommend making the "emergency backup boss" monsters distinct from the beginning, so as to make it a bit more plausible. So instead of 27 leprous goblins, have 24 leprous goblins and 3 really big leprous goblins, or 3 leprous goblins with fancy hats and disease god holy symbols, or whatever. Note I single out 3, not 2 - players will tend to focus fire on anything that looks different/interesting, so you'll want to have some "padding" to have one get exploded by PCs before you've decided to unleash the filth demons.
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Old 04-19-2018, 02:47 PM   #10
Revturkey
 
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Default Re: Monsters!

Hi all, thanks very much for your replies...seems like the consensus is to ignore point considerations and go with a case by case basis. Bit more complicated than I was hoping for...relying more on experience with the system etc. Fair enough. At least practicing is fun :) need to get some games under my belt and learn how it all balances then. Thanks.
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