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Old 12-10-2014, 04:41 PM   #11
mlangsdorf
 
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Default Re: [Adventure Guns] The gun cabinet of a Victorian explorer, hunter, Col. (Ret.)

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Originally Posted by Toptomcat View Post
Interesting. Why? Faster to drop a fired gun and pick up a loaded one than to reload a break action?
No, this is 21st century and we use pumps and semi-autos.

Usually people bring a spare gun in case one gets fussy (and multiple people will do this) or they may have bought a new gun, want to try it out, and want to have a reliable gun around in case the new gun works out. Also, some of the field guns are a bit heavy so people will have a heavy 12g for the morning and a lighter 20g for the afternoon.

Also, we like guns.
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Old 12-10-2014, 06:11 PM   #12
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Default Re: [Adventure Guns] The gun cabinet of a Victorian explorer, hunter, Col. (Ret.)

The only iconic ones that I can think of for which there are GURPS stats would be:

An H&H Paradox, definitely. Tops the list. Iconic. George Fosbury VC designed it fer Chrissakes.
The Greener Elephant gun is the only such that I see GURPS stats for.
Some sort of Howdah pistol. The Lancaster and Greener are both represented.
A Martini-Henry of some sort.
Any of the Webley or Adams revolvers that predate 1888.
Multiple shotguns, yes, but I don't know that there is an iconic one represented in GURPs.
One of the Snider conversions of the Enfield wouldn't be totally inappropriate.

I would almost say that a Remington Rolling Block wouldn't be out of place, either, because they were used all over the world. But I think it would be more accurate to say "all over the world except Britain."

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Old 12-10-2014, 06:44 PM   #13
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Default Re: [Adventure Guns] The gun cabinet of a Victorian explorer, hunter, Col. (Ret.)

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Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
The character in question is probably so rich that he employs (from time to time) a loader. Certainly the people with whom he shoots customarily do so. It was (probably still is) customary to buy pheasant guns in custom-made pairs.
I was actually wondering about that. It looks like being merely Wealthy in GURPS terms makes the Colonel somewhat of a poor relation.

The character will have had to learn over the years how to best utilise his limited funds to keep an adequate stock of sporting and adventuring gear while adeptly concealing from his Very Wealthy, Filthy Rich and above circle of acquintances that he ever needs to worry about such sordid concerns as filthy lucre.

I imagine that his present state is, if anything, a fairly recent flush of affluence. The way GURPS Wealth rules work, his monthly income amounts to a significant fraction of his total liquid assets at start of play.

His player was agreeable to interpret this as his rousing tales of exploration and big game hunting finally beginning to enjoy a wider readership and consequently, bringing in higher royalties and stimulating more lavish sponsorship of his enthnographic soujourns into the Dark Continent.
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Old 12-10-2014, 06:58 PM   #14
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Default Re: [Adventure Guns] The gun cabinet of a Victorian explorer, hunter, Col. (Ret.)

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I was actually wondering about that. It looks like being merely Wealthy in GURPS terms makes the Colonel somewhat of a poor relation.
Even so. If he goes shooting with his social peers in England they will have loaders, beaters, gamekeepers and so forth with them. If he can't afford to buy a pair of guns or to hire a loader he can't afford to own shooting-coverts: he will shoot someone else's game, and his host will provide loaders.

We've seen this before with GURPS Wealth. Especially at modest tech levels you have to buy a lot of levels of it to afford the things that middle-class people had.
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Old 12-10-2014, 06:59 PM   #15
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Default Re: [Adventure Guns] The gun cabinet of a Victorian explorer, hunter, Col. (Ret.)

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Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
Definitely ought to have a pair of Purdeys, and probably a lighter shotgun for doves. Double rifle from Hollard & Holland for dangerous game. Probably a Martini-Henry service rifle and Webley Mk. I revolver. I would expect a Winchester. Maybe a French Lebel '86, firing one of those newfangled small-bore smokeless-powder cartridges, for long shots in open country. '88 is the year of introduction for the Lee-Metford (which is British) and of the German G88 (which is good), so it's probably a bit early for them. And something a bit lighter for antelope.
The player has already indicated that the Colonel carries on him* a privately purchased Webley-Wilkinson revolver and a Wilkinson cavalry saber, relics of his active service days.** He also has a pocket pistol that he always carries east of the Aldgate, a British Bulldog.

He also owns a Martiny-Henry rifle, which served him well as a cheap and versatile hunting weapon, for which ammunition could easily be had, in less affluent days.

He also owns a modern smokeless powder rifle (most likely a French Lebel), which he considers a marvel of technology and suitable for any game up to lion.

So far, however, I don't know which brand of elephant gun he ought to own and in what gauge. I think GURPS only gives stats for the 8-gauge. I didn't see any stats for black powder express rifles in Adventure Guns, which was a disappointment, as I'd rather considered one of those for him.

Also, don't know what lighter gun he favoured before the Lebel.

He needs at least a couple of society-worthy bird guns and maybe a bush shotgun capable of taking anything from poultry dinner to a chance met predator.

*At least while in full uniform, at the wake of an acquintance whom he knew as a military surgeon, as he was at the start of play.
**Well, actually, he buys new revolvers as each new advance becomes available. The Webley-Wilkinson is what he bought for his retirement ceremony, as he was having his sword refurbished by Wilkinson for that event. Most of his active duty days, the character carried an Adams revolver and liked it.
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Old 12-10-2014, 07:08 PM   #16
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Default Re: [Adventure Guns] The gun cabinet of a Victorian explorer, hunter, Col. (Ret.)

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Even so. If he goes shooting with his social peers in England they will have loaders, beaters, gamekeepers and so forth with them. If he can't afford to buy a pair of guns or to hire a loader he can't afford to own shooting-coverts: he will shoot someone else's game, and his host will provide loaders.
Very true. The Colonel most certainly prioritised the purchase of a respectable pair of guns as soon as he could.

He may have had to settle for less than Purdey's, however, or perhaps simply a pre-owned pair obtained from an improvident friend who has upgraded to a more modern design and was glad to sell off some of his surplus sporting gear for more cash the wife needn't know about, to spread around gaming tables or sporting houses.
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Old 12-10-2014, 07:26 PM   #17
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Default Re: [Adventure Guns] The gun cabinet of a Victorian explorer, hunter, Col. (Ret.)

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King Solomon's Mines was set in about 1883–84, and while Haggard was not a notable hunter he had lived in South Africa (as a colonial official) for six years. The armoury that Quartermain took with him on an expedition into the interior is listed thus:

[snip]

Note that, apart from native servants, there were three members of the expedition: Quartermain, Sir Henry Curtis, and Captain Good. So that is one double-barrelled eight-gauge elephant gun, one double-barrelled .500-calibre express rifle, a Winchester repeating rifle, and a Colt revolver for each explorer, plus a single double-barrelled 12-gauge for practical purposes.
Yes, the first thing I did when the character was mooted was dig out King Solomon's Mines and find this passage.

The thing is, I couldn't find black powder express rifles statted anywhere. I rather think that the Colonel has one of those, bought when his finances were improved from the time he relied on a Martini-Henry for most every kind of game, but well before he obtained his new miraculous Lebel.

Actually, the player wanted his character to have a 'new-fangled' smokeless rifle suitable for the veldt, good for antilope, duiker, wildebeest and the occasional obstreperous native. The Lebel was my suggestion, but I would welcome another brand with the same kind of utility. The character is not a Francophobe, but he would much prefer German, Swiss, Swedish or even Danish engineering over French.

Best of all would be British. It is entirely in character for our hearty Colonel to have been consulted by old Army friends during the appropriation process for the Lee-Metford, so perhaps one of the proposed designs could have been championed by him and he obtained a proto-type.
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Old 12-10-2014, 08:05 PM   #18
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Default Re: [Adventure Guns] The gun cabinet of a Victorian explorer, hunter, Col. (Ret.)

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Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
He might have a Holland & Holland paradox gun.
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Originally Posted by acrosome View Post
The only iconic ones that I can think of for which there are GURPS stats would be:

An H&H Paradox, definitely. Tops the list. Iconic. George Fosbury VC designed it fer Chrissakes.
He would certainly want one.

Unfortunately, I imagine that the military relics already described plus a pair of respectable shotguns and a good elephant rifle will leave him very little spare cash. Certainly it won't stretch far beyond utilitarian camp gear and unfashionable old-standbys. Holland & Holland may be outside his means.

Utmost frugality will be required merely to supply the Colonel with the basics of his trade, as Wealthy at TL5 doesn't actually mean even 'comfortable', in the view of proper society of the era.

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Originally Posted by acrosome View Post
TheThe Greener Elephant gun is the only such that I see GURPS stats for.
Some sort of Howdah pistol. The Lancaster and Greener are both represented.
Cool, but not vital. Relegated to 'buy if spare cash allows'.

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Originally Posted by acrosome View Post
TheA Martini-Henry of some sort.

Any of the Webley or Adams revolvers that predate 1888.
Done and done.

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Originally Posted by acrosome View Post
TheMultiple shotguns, yes, but I don't know that there is an iconic one represented in GURPs.
What maker is respectable without being obscenely expensive? Enough not to rate a Reaction penalty among Status 2+ society, but obviously not enough for any kind of Reaction bonus from them.

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TheOne of the Snider conversions of the Enfield wouldn't be totally inappropriate.
He may well have had his old one converted. On the other hand, anything he used as a young man would most likely be well-worn and with the pace of personal weapon development, he is most likely content to hang up as museum pieces anything he used in the 1860s.

Only shotguns he uses in society are likely to be that old and still in use with him, and that only if they are elegant and from a respectable maker.
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Old 12-10-2014, 09:25 PM   #19
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Default Budget and roles

As a (barely) TL6 character with Wealthy, the Colonel has $50,000 GURPS to play with.

We'll assume that the bare necessities of clothing, travelling gear and all kinds of kit consume a full $10,000 of that. Then we'll assume that his fine sword, a favourite service pistol and a pocket pistol, a pair of respectable shotguns, a lighter birding gun and a high-quality elephant rifle will together consume a full $25,000 of his budget.

This leaves him $15,000 for any other firearms he might need. This includes a new-fangled smokeless powder rifle for long-range shooting of medium game (which I'll probably charge double GURPS price for, as they are exceedingly new and only a few have been made in 1888).

What I'm considering are the following roles:

Elephant rifle: A good double rifle from a respected English gunsmith, using black powder and a round ball somewhere in the vicinity of 4- to 6-bore. Possibly a very high-powder load in an 8-bore might do, but would really prefer a bigger round. Can spend up to $10,000 if necessary, would be good to find a quality rifle for around $5,000-8,000.

Perhaps the most ideal solution here would be if the Colonel could afford one battered, but finely-made 4-bore double rifle of a 1850s vintage and also one more modern .577 Black Powder Express double rifle that he bought more recently, perhaps within the decade. That, however, would likely push his budget to the breaking point.

Edit 2: I've moved away from the idea of a .577 Black Powder Express double rifle for elephant, as it seems the GURPS stats would make such a round pretty anemic. Also, it's a huge bite out of the budget for a new elephant gun, when the character is meant to hunt all sorts of animals and to need guns as a soldier and explorer. And the character has a Weapon Bond for his old 4-bore double rifle, so I guess he's averse to replacing it.

Pair of Shotguns: Most probably in 12-gauge and most certainly doubles. Looking for a gunsmith that is less expensive than Purdey or Holland & Holland, but still not gauche or indicative of poverty. Preferably something of high quality, but not finished quite as expensively as the guns of great landowners or financiers with pretensions to gentility. Prepared to pay up to $5,000 per gun, but would prefer slightly lower price.

Lighter shotgun: Something tasteful and light, for when a gun is called for, but not very much gun. Single-barrel might be enough here and maybe a 16-gauge or even a 20-gauge. Can go up to $3,000, but would prefer a much lower price (ideally around $1,000), as long as it is not going to cause Reaction penalties among high society.

Bush gun: A 10-gauge double smoothbore, with unchoked barrels no more than 24" long and maybe down to 18". Solid craftsmanship and prefered British pedigree, but quality more important than finish or decoration. Preferably no more than $2,000 and best of all if he could get quality for around $1,000.

Pot gun: A servicable shotgun in 12-gauge, probably single barrel and with a full choke. Ought not to run more than $600 or so.

Old manstopper: Always in his trunks, even if he has more modern weapons available, the faithful Martini-Henry Mk1 in .450 MH. Sets him back only $550.

Long Range Rifle: It's necessary to have a rifle that can reach out and touch someone. Single-barrelled with a barrel over 30", made by a British gunsmith who knows his business and ideally Fine (Accurate). Probably in .450, with a heavy bullet with good sectional density and loaded with at least 110 grains of black powder. If he can afford it, a scope would be wonderful. Rifles like this are available in America since 1874 for $1,750 and up, but I guess that the Colonel is unlikely to be able to get one for under $3,500 and might have to go up to $5,000, unless he just buys a Remington Rolling Block Number One Long Range Creedmore or a Sharps Long Range Model 1874. This was a time when American long-range rifles got superior results over traditional Irish or English rifles for a fraction of the cost of the best Rigby or Whitworth rifles.

Big game rifle, older: A sentimental favourite, probably an early acquisition. Good for tiger, lion, buffalo, rhino, hippotamus and even elephant, on a good shot. An 8-bore double rifle made by a good gunsmith, but not a fashionable one, and bought used and without any expensive finish or decoration.

The Greener Elephant Rifle is $3,000, but the Greener name usually carries a cachet and I would guess that their rifles would look very nice and tend to impress society people compared to less prestigious brands.

The Greener Elephant Rifle does not, as many other 'name-brand' guns do, list that the book price for it includes Styling for a +1 even for the plainest model, however. I'm not sure if that's deliberate or not. Since guns that give +3 to reaction have a +9 CF and guns that give +4 reaction have +19 CF, it seems that a very plain-model, no cachet manufacturer, no modifier to reactions, double rifle is around $1,000-$2,000, judging by what the H&H Royal, Dominion Nr. 2 or Paradox and Rigby Best Quality Double (and lesser grades) cost in HT:PG2.

It seems to me more logical if the base price were $1,500, with a typical model used by a gentleman actually having craftsmanship good enough to qualify for Styling +1 and thus costing at least $3,000 (as the Greener Elephant Rifle). Otherwise, the H&H Royal or Rigby Best Quality Double couldn't give +4 to Reactions, only +3.

In any case, the GURPS price for a plain-model 8-bore double-barrel elephant rifle is somewhere between $1,500 to $3,000.

Medium game rifle, old-school: A black powder express rifle, probably a double-barrelled one, made by a reliable British gunsmith. Probably in .500 (Black Powder) Express, but anything close to that would do. Meant to be enough gun to take game up to cape buffalo and even possibly rhino or hippotamus, but mostly intended for lion, tiger and various hooved herd animals. Hopefully available around $2,000 or even possibly lower.

Medium game rifle, new-fangled: The Bullard Express Repeating Rifle in .50-115 Bullard is just too good a weapon not to snap up, regardless of nationalistic sentiments. It sets our Colonel back $1,000.

Game rifle, mainstay: I'm thinking that a Winchester 1876, the basic model with a 28" barrel in .45-75 Winchester, will do perfectly for a versatile rifle. It sets our Colonel back only $460.

Game rifle, new-fangled: The newest model of smokeless powder rifle was slated to be a Lebel, but I would very much like ideas for alternatives that are possible in 1888. Some variation of a Lee rifle, much like a M1885 Remington-Lee chambered in .303 or even in the black powder .402 Enfield, would be possible as a prototype dating from the British Army trials in preparation for adopting the Lee-Metford. In any case, I'd charge more for a brand-new weapon, not yet in full production and usually not available to civilians. So such a weapon would set the Colonel back anywhere from $1,200 to $3,500, but ideally less than $2,000.

Rook rifle: A light rifle for smaller game. Single-barreled, with a fairly small caliber, but high-velocity, at least as far as black powder weapons can be. Won't spend more than $800 on it and would hope to spend around $500 or so.

Other than that, I hope to have funds to buy lots of ammo, a range of revolvers (some kept for sentimental reasons) and preferably a few more guns for roles I've forgot.

Edit: Going more carefully over the budget, I discover the following:

Basic stuff: Clothes, effects, scientific gear, other $10,000
Knife and saber: Custom-made Wilkinson saber, exquisite jambiya* and other curiosities $6,000-10,000**
Revolvers: Webley-Wilkinson revolver, British Bulldog revolver, a selection of five former service revolvers $3,000
Old service rifles: An Enfield converted by the Snider method, a Snider carbine and a Martini-Henry $1,500

A preliminary budget for other roles might then be:

Elephant rifle: $6,000
Pair of Shotguns: $6,500
Lighter Shotgun: $1,500
Bush gun: $1,500
Pot gun: $600
Long Range Rifle: $5,000
Big game rifle, older: $3,000
Medium game rifle, old-school: $2,000
Medium game rifle, new-fangled: $1,000
Game rifle, mainstay: $500
Game rifle, new-fangled: $3,000
Rook rifle: $500

It is tight, but it might be possible.

A 'would be nice' item to acquire is a Greener Double-Grip pistol. It would also be awesome to be able to afford a couple of the new bolt-action rifles from the continent, in addition to a Lee rifle in .402 Enfield. It's traditional to have a Mauser and/or Mannlicher, and there are some really sweet weapons emerging from the arms race between France, Germany, Austria-Hungary and the lesser powers.

*Gift of a beloved sheikh.
**Most likely going to be Signature Gear.
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Old 12-11-2014, 09:13 AM   #20
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Default Re: [Adventure Guns] The gun cabinet of a Victorian explorer, hunter, Col. (Ret.)

I'm still "new" to 4e, but can you still trade character points for cash at creation? The Colonel may seriously consider doing that, representing time spent looking for bargains, quietly. Also note that sometimes brand-new, high-end firearms are available at substantial discounts in Africa, thanks to previous owners with more cash than sense (or luck).

I do have to say that I really like the idea of playing up that, even at what should be a comfortable income, the character still has to struggle to afford to adventure in the style of his party.
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