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Old 02-19-2016, 12:51 PM   #91
GodBeastX
 
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I don't think cyberpunk is a very good model for Star Wars. In cyberpunk, technology trumps humanity. The world is going through dislocation because of the rapidity of technological development, which is stripping humanity of their humanity, both physically (in the form of cybernetic implants) and metaphorically. You're just a cog in this vast machine, and the only way for you to get ahead is to cast off the traditional role you have been given, and live counter to the generally accepted lifestyle (the "punk" of cyberpunk). The top of the food chain and the bottom of the food chain both know that the "American dream" is a lie, and so fight one another in the shadows, while the "sheeple" middleclass is enslaved by that lie. Cyberpunk is full of lies and deceptions, layers and layers of it, and you win with information, with getting to the heart of the conspiracy or the heart of the code, which are often metaphors for one another.

Star Wars doesn't work anything like that. It's pulp. Good guys are good, bad guys are bad, the common man is blue collar, someone who works with his hands, rather than someone in middle management. It's a world of legends and lore, of princes and princesses. It's a fairytale crossed with Wild West "Wahoo!" and late victorian adventurism. It tends to buy into the sort of idealism that would have a cyberpunk character sneering at you.

The presence of the middle class is vital in a cyberpunk story because they represent the foolish herds marching to their corporate suicide. They're also vital in Star Trek, because they represent what the Federation is protecting, the paradise that a Federation officer hopes to return to. In Star Wars, they might represent a dream, a utopian goal, that people want to ressurect, but generally Star Wars has an even "simpler life" sort of take. A Jedi would retire to a farm or a distant bog or become a hermit. He doesn't get a condo and a wife and a couple of kids who go to school. That sort of thing is a little more apparent in the Prequels because that was before the order of the Republic was torn apart by civil war and Empire. The Alliance cannot have a idyllic middle class because the Empire oppresses them, and the Empire cannot have an idyllic middle class because that would make the Empire seem like the good guys. They all have to be slaves or soldiers or fascist leaders. The dream of peace, freedom and a better life is what the Alliance is fighting for, but it's not what they have.

I will note further that low-lifes vs aristocracy certainly exists in Star Wars, but is covered by my lenses already. And the scooby-doo gang episode of Clone Wars featured aristocrats, kids who could just walk right up to the Duchess of their world and tell her what was up, rather than some middle-class kids.

Or so it seems to me, and thus that's the tack that I'm taking.

If you disagree and want to come up with a more "middle class" lens, feel free. The point of Psi Wars is not, of course, "Do it Mailanka's way." Were it that, I would just publish the setting material and be done with it. I publish it the way I do so that you can more cleanly pick it apart and put it back together. After all, a space opera game based heavily on the Action Framework would certainly make for excellent "Cyberpunk in space"
You're definitely right on how things are portrayed. However there's a key thing about Star Wars that is left out in the list of what you're talking about.

Jedi are a big deal in the stories told on the big screen, so in that sense it literally is good vs evil. However, Star Wars universe is far expanded beyond the Jedi.

For example, hutt life, bounty hunter life, rogues (Like Han Solo), agents (The Old Republic), and various other characters exist in the star wars saga. The theme and what's important to it should be portrayed in what the story focus is.

I was speaking more from a general overview of the universe of star wars than particular stories. It contains everything you'd find in a cyberpunk universe and some. I've even gone through plotlines where mad scientists and corporations were turning every day people into brains in a droid can. There is worlds where the stories of the middle class being oppressed by rogue elements and "men in suits" becomes important. There are metaphysical trips too with magical entities and crazy sorcery come to the fore front.

With billions of worlds the story can vary in so many ways.

This isn't to say Psi Wars needs to represent all of that. Quite the contrary, it's based upon the story that the GM wants to tell. If it's good/evil psion battles at the core, then it can stick to that. Just like the movies don't touch on those plot points since it tends to follow the good/evil of the force. That just isn't the whole of "Star Wars" was my point.
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Old 02-19-2016, 02:21 PM   #92
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Default Re: Mailanka's Musings -- GURPS Content Post

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You're definitely right on how things are portrayed. However there's a key thing about Star Wars that is left out in the list of what you're talking about.

Jedi are a big deal in the stories told on the big screen, so in that sense it literally is good vs evil. However, Star Wars universe is far expanded beyond the Jedi.

For example, hutt life, bounty hunter life, rogues (Like Han Solo), agents (The Old Republic), and various other characters exist in the star wars saga. The theme and what's important to it should be portrayed in what the story focus is.

*snip*

This isn't to say Psi Wars needs to represent all of that. Quite the contrary, it's based upon the story that the GM wants to tell. If it's good/evil psion battles at the core, then it can stick to that. Just like the movies don't touch on those plot points since it tends to follow the good/evil of the force. That just isn't the whole of "Star Wars" was my point.
What you say is true (especially about rogues and low-lifes, which is an element I definitely want to include) and part of the reason I chose to make Psi-Wars rather than Star Wars is precisely to avoid that sort of "But Star Wars is X" discussion. Instead, I can take what I like from it... be that cyberpunk in space, as inspired by things like Dark Forces, or the more-rogue heavy "Hive of Scum and Villainy storylines" (Star Wars certainly does have corporations, industrial magnates, and bickering politicians), or more war-story lines, or pure martial arts in space.

For my take, the reason I've left out what I would call the middle class is I want more... post Roman-Republic Civil War, more Sengoku Japan, to me that almost medieval feeling is iconic to Star Wars, and I'm trying to remain iconic for Psi Wars. Were it entirely up to me, I'd probably go deeper in one direction or the other.

But you're definitely right to point out that I'm not necessarily slaved to Star Wars, nor to a particular interpretation of Star Wars, and that there's no specific reason not to have a "Middle Class" sort of character. It can certainly fit into the "Action in Space telling a story about psi and war and spy-vs-spy"
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Old 02-21-2016, 10:19 PM   #93
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Well yeah, if I was going to run Psi Wars, which I might, it seems pretty cool, I would run my take on it (and back when I ran Star Wars it was my own take on it to), however, the discussion in the forum thread and seeing you answer (and force me to answer) questions iswhat makes this cool! I've read books and articles on 'how to design campaign/adventure/setting', probably dozens of such, but never before actually talked to the author on it as its ongoing

As a note, I am actually using some of your advice on cinematics, when our manly mighty the wed hero jumped a zombie from behind and buried his SM +1 great sword into its skull for 96 damage I just called it dead without rolling HT checks, even if 6xHP wasn't until 114 damage
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Old 02-22-2016, 12:32 AM   #94
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We start a new data-dump with Dun Beltain version 2.0. Let's see how these new templates stand up compared to the old ones.
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Old 02-22-2016, 06:31 AM   #95
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Much better! This is a character I would approve as a DM no problem. His primary weapon skill is still low, but not as low, and I can buy 'he is a starting character'

I think his block calculation is off and should be up by a 1

I would encourage the Shield Wall Training perk, so no worries about whether or not he suffers an attack penalty from his DB3 buckler, and he can block for his buddies!

Love the force buckler BTW, much cooler
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Old 02-22-2016, 07:20 AM   #96
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Much better! This is a character I would approve as a DM no problem. His primary weapon skill is still low, but not as low, and I can buy 'he is a starting character'
Using a framework is definitely an improvement over using the GURPS Space Templates.

If I have one complaint about this iteration's templates, it's that they're scattered. They do everything alright, but they're not all that focused... which the exception of the Fighter Ace, who required some effort on my part to keep the Pilot at 18 and Gunner at 16, when I got around to making a sample character.

This particular incarnation is not yet the "Space Wuxia Knight!" but the "Body guard with a light saber," which means he has quite some focus on non-combat stuff.
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I think his block calculation is off and should be up by a 1
You're right.

Quote:
I would encourage the Shield Wall Training perk, so no worries about whether or not he suffers an attack penalty from his DB3 buckler, and he can block for his buddies!
In my playtest, I didn't apply that rule because I didn't know about that rule, but even if I had known, I'm still not sure I would apply it. The thing is basically a bracelet that happens to project a field. I don't get the impression it would be as unwieldy as an actual shield with DB 3. It's an interesting question, though. Definitely something I should address at some point.
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Old 02-22-2016, 07:54 AM   #97
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In my Space Fantasy I used 'Hospitaller' as the tank/bodyguard class name

In Space Opera there is admittedly an issue with a melee focused bodyguard class . . . you want to stay near the squishies to protect them, but you often face enemies who lack the desire to rush in and melee you

I think Dun should work good at rushing lustily into melee, and has enough random skills and things to keep him relevant outside of fights, but I'm not sure about actual body guarding beyond the traditional 'if we kill all the enemies they stop attacking' approach
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Old 02-22-2016, 08:08 AM   #98
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In my Space Fantasy I used 'Hospitaller' as the tank/bodyguard class name

In Space Opera there is admittedly an issue with a melee focused bodyguard class . . . you want to stay near the squishies to protect them, but you often face enemies who lack the desire to rush in and melee you

I think Dun should work good at rushing lustily into melee, and has enough random skills and things to keep him relevant outside of fights, but I'm not sure about actual body guarding beyond the traditional 'if we kill all the enemies they stop attacking' approach
The body guard skills of the Space Knight template are things like Electronics Operation (Surveillance), Intelligence Analysis, Danger Sense, Observation, etc. The idea is for the character to look ahead to potential threats. Action is more strategic than tactical. A good Action team will bypass combat, rather than engage in it, and you see a lot of that in these templates too. Dun doesn't really have that much focus on bodyguard stuff (which bit me a little in the playtest), but you can see some of it: Mechanic is there to help check for traps and to make sure a downed vehicle can get back up and running. Observation and Danger Sense help him spot threats before they materialize into real problems. Intelligence Analysis allows him to look at all the evidence he has and make a reasoned guess as to what's going on, and Tactics allows him to form a plan of action and Leadership allows him to encourage others to follow it.

He's less Dungeon-Fantasy Tank than he is secret service agent with a light saber. I didn't do this because I thought that's what Space Knights should be, but because I noticed the concept while working on the commandos, and I thought "Hey, why not slap the Esoteric Weapon skillset on him and call him a Space Knight for this iteration, see how it works?"

But having watched more Star Wars... this isn't far off the mark of what they actually do, only they don't do it with technology, they do it with the Force. They look forward to threats with their prescience, they question people with their telepathy, they investigate plots, uncover problems, and either deal with those problems directly, or position themselves to defend those threatened. They're even described as "Keepers of the peace" in the Republic times.

So, in retrospect, it's not really a bad direction to take the templates in. Now, I think the Space Knight needs another set of revisions. In Iteration 4, I'll take a very close look at powers and martial arts, and that also requires taking a closer look at combat and I expect to also revisit the Bounty Hunter then, look into the Assassin and the Frontier Marshall (a question I have been chewing on for awhile: What separates a bounty hunter from a frontier marshall? Both involve investigation, combat, the law and bringing people in alive...).

But one last comment about something that really stood out to me during this iteration: When I began this project, I expected the Space Knights to dominate people's attention, and to dominate the game. After all, cool powers > no powers. But what I noticed swiftly in this iteration was that the Bounty Hunter and the Spy etc could have used more points. People need a little of everything, and a lot of quite a few things! I could have easily sunk another hundred or two hundred points into these characters! Which means that a psionic knight with 50-100 points in psionic powers isn't really going to overshadow a spy or a bounty hunter.

That pleases me. It wasn't something I cleverly worked out. That's just GURPS being GURPS, and it's a very good sign.
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Old 02-22-2016, 08:36 AM   #99
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By . . . pass . . . combat? What madness is this?

Though your right, in Star Wars there IS a lot of bypassing combat

I was never worried about Space Knights overshadowing folks, I was much more worried that a good blaster by your side (and the skill to use it) would be cheaper more effective and leave them bringing knives to a gunfight as it were

I'm still not convinced this won't be the case, though the first test fight was encouraging
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Old 02-22-2016, 09:08 AM   #100
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I was never worried about Space Knights overshadowing folks, I was much more worried that a good blaster by your side (and the skill to use it) would be cheaper more effective and leave them bringing knives to a gunfight as it were

I'm still not convinced this won't be the case, though the first test fight was encouraging
Ah yes, that's another issue. I should have stated it better.

For the melee element, I've not articulated it directly, but I'm following the suggestions in Action 3: I keep combat close-up, which is effectively all that seems to be necessary so far, though eventually I want to add some more effective ranged combatants as enemies and see what comes out.

What I meant was this: The space knight is romantic and interesting. They have cool powers, and those cool powers tend to want to push the game to higher and higher point values, but if the space knight burns 100 points on telekinesis, what will the bounty hunter spend 100 points on? If it's on "Beam Weapons (Pistol)", then he'll totally eclipse the Space Knight, and that's a problem.

But, instead, I think you'd find that the Bounty Hunter would end up spending a lot of points on expanding their breadth more than necessarily increasing their depth.
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