[Vehicles/Mecha] Macross/Space Fighter Idea

[scc]

OK, this idea has pretty much crawled into my brain and won't leave me alone until I pay it some attention, this could end up as a campaign, a story or simply something in the trash heap, as long as it leaves me alone. so “Out, damned spot.” as the quote goes.

The basic idea is Legs are Useless in Space (which might makes for a good title), anyway recently I've read a Ranma/Robotech fic called Chaotic Space, which while a good read seemed to push my tolerance of the worst abuses of the Mecha genre, especially Real Robots, past breaking point (I think that Macross/Robotech sits in just the wrong spot for me, what with it's mix of Real and Super and attempt to justify that doesn't last past episode 2). And I'm trying to avoid ranting here.

So as it's Macross/Robotech that's the serries that gets worked on.

Anyway, I figure my starting point is the Stormhawk in Mecha. I figure there will be two varients on this, the first produced just after the spacefold accident and it's sort of like we're is space, why do we need arms and legs? A follow up model is no wings needed either. Now this last model is going to be designed solely for space combat, so it will be a literal flying brick, I'm pretty sure that as long as it generates more then 1G in thrust it will be able to fly, but landing could be a problem (This design may not even have landing gear). Now that note on the Stormhawk's armor means that half of it's body armor is DR1200 instead of DR800 right? Oh, and should it have a Hnd rating if played with under 4th ed?

Now, Zentradi. As the Stormhawk, which replaces the Valkyrie, is SM+4. So that makes Zentradi SM+4 or +5? And Battlepods will be one SM bigger? Given the crammed cockpits I'd say Battlepods give DX-2. Now I don't need full stats for Battlepods, just enough for PCs to kill them. DR will be like the Stormhawk but lacking in the ablative underlay, so just DR 100, but laminate or metal? As for weapons, well the Stormhawk uses a TL9 Lt. Particle Cannon, so 2 Blaster Minicannon's for the two lower down weapons and 2 Lt. Blaster's for the higher up ones, all four at TL9. HP of 1,500 for the Body and 800 for each leg sound good?

[Phantasm]

I'm not so sure the Stormhawk at SM +4 is the right size for a first-generation UNSPACY/RDF Valkyrie/Veritch fighter. It looks visually based off the F-14 Tomcat, which at 40 tons is easily in the SM +5 range.

As we see Zentrons/Zentraedi grappling Veritchs in Battloid mode in the pilot episodes, and Max Sterling is able to have his Veritech don a Zentraedi uniform while essentially stuck in a broom closet, I'd put both the Zentraedi and Veritchs at SM +5.

I think the Zentraedi battlepods should be SM +7, as I seem to recall them being twice as large as their pilots.


...


And aren't blasters a TL10 weapon? I seem to recall some of the specs for the Veritechs and Destroids, at least, firing physical ammo in their first-generation designs. For TL9, you may want lasers (field-jacketed for the special colors, perhaps!) or ammo. The Zentraedi can fire particle beams no problem, though!

[Varyon]

If you're intending to use 4e, Spaceships 4 has the Ariel Transformable Fighter, which I'm pretty confident is meant to be a Macross-style variable fighter with the serial numbers filed off. That book is probably your best bet for making mecha in 4e.

[Fred Brackin]

[QUOTE=tbrock1031;
And aren't blasters a TL10 weapon? [/QUOTE]

Not in 3e. They were indeed TL9 in 3e (and lasers were TL8).

Between the passage of time and 4e starting TL8 20 years earlier many things that were "mature TL8" (c. 2050) have bee pushed back into TL9 or even 10.

Then there are superscience issues. 3e tended to equate superscience with simply higher TL. If there were multiple items of superscience and those were well-developed it had a point.

[chandley]

For the Robotech conversion I did, SM+5 worked pretty well for all of the large size (Macross era) human mecha. I use a _bunch_ of optional design switches to fit the fairly cinematic Robotech universe. Only quibble I have is that the Robotech series shows bog standard Veritechs making orbit on their own several times, which argues for another Hot Reactionless Thruster in jet mode (replacing the legs). I dont do the "Legs = Jets" thing on this build because Guardian mode needs both jets and legs, so the trick used by Ariel doesnt really work.

My Zentradi Battlepod ended up SM+5, and I made Zentradi themselves SM+4. The Zentradi pilot takes up sections 2-6 and C in the Center hull (with one armor sections to wrap him in). I fit the rest of the Battlepods systems around that. Officers pods (and the female power armor/fighter suits) ended up SM+6 with some empty space. Only the M.A.C. II ended up SM+7.

DR is mostly a play balance thing. A combination of always using hit locations and blow through, plus the larger than normal HPs for "keeping big vehicles alive" lets these guys get shot to pieces (like Rick losing his arm on his first foray) without instantly being disintegrated. I also don't use any kinetic kill warheads on the missiles. The show doesnt use them, and of course if you DO use them, you run into the problem of why would you use anything else. The chemical explosive warheads work fine for matching the source.

Veritech Fighter													
SM +5 Transformable Hull		Design Switches: Square Root of Destruction (Beams), HPs based on 0.85x root of weight, Keeping Large Vehicles alive, Armor and Volume											
TL 9 (10^ for Engines, Reactor)		ST/4 instead of Basic Move for jumping, Compact Reactors, Increased Damage with Superhuman Strength											
													
TL	Spacecraft	dST/HP	Hnd/SR	HT	Move	LWt.	Load	SM	Occ	dDR	Cost		
9/10^	Veritech Fighter (RDF/VF series)	20/40	+4/5	12	1G/c*	30	0.5**	+5	1	15***	$3,762,000		
													
Notes: *Battloid Walk at Move 10/20, Super Jump 2 (Move 25, 32 yards up/128 yards over), Ground Hnd/SR is +3/3; Divide top Air speed by 10, Air Hnd/SR: 0/4.  													
Jet mode Air speed: 10/1250. Divide top Airspeed by 4 for Guardian mode, Hnd/SR still 4/5.													
**The GU-11 gun pod and missiles are carried, and reduce speed: GU-11: 0.95G/c, Air Move 9/1220; Missiles+GU-11: 0.8G/c, Air Move 8/1120. GU-11 = No Enc, GU-11 + Missiles = Light Enc													
*** Hardened, x1.5 for 10 systems													
Crew: 1 Pilot													
Combat: 20 second turns, Close combat scale / 10 mile hexes. 													
	Name	dDam			sAcc	Range	RoF	Shots	Rcl	Notes			
	GU-11	7d (2) pi++			-10	C/1 impulse	10	350	3	Hand held, 2 handed bracing is +1 to hit. APHEX ammo			
	Nose Blasters	5d burn rad sur (5)			-3	C/S, 30/100	1	-	1	Fixed: +2 to hit. Burn sur (5) in atmosphere. Jet/Guardian only			
	Head Lasers	3d cr ex			0	S, 60/200	1	-	1	Turreted. Blue-Green Pulse (can fire underwater). 			
	Short Range Missile (8cm)	6dx2 cr ex			0	S, T 1/10 BP	1	1	1	Air Move 50/5600, 180 seconds of thrust, Max Air range: 460 miles			
	Medium Range Missile (16cm)	6dx4 cr ex			1	L, T 1/20 BP	1	1	1	Air Move 50/5600, 350 seconds of thrust, Max Air range: 1760 miles			
	Long Range Missile (32cm)	6dx8 cr ex			2	X, T 1/40 BP	1	1	1	Air Move 50/5600, 700 seconds of thrust, Max Air range: 7040 miles			
													
Loc	System	Cost			Notes								
	Front												
1	SL Advanced Metallic Laminate	120000			Hardened. dDR 3								
2	SL Advanced Metallic Laminate	120000			Hardened. dDR 3								
3	SL Advanced Metallic Laminate	120000			Hardened. dDR 3								
4	SL Advanced Metallic Laminate	120000			Hardened. dDR 3								
5	Control Room	60000			Comm/Sensor 3								
6	Weapon Battery [!]	150000			2x Fixed 3MJ Blasters (Neutral or Charged particle), up to 4 Turreted 1MJ Blue-Green Lasers.								
C	Defensive ECM	300000			-2 to ranged attacks against the Veritech								
	Center												
1	SL Advanced Metallic Laminate	120000			Hardened. dDR 3								
2	SL Advanced Metallic Laminate	120000			Hardened. dDR 3								
3	SL Advanced Metallic Laminate	120000			Hardened. dDR 3								
4	  External Clamp	1000			Wing pylons, can load missiles or gun pods. Attached mass affects acceleration and airspeed.								
	  External Clamp	1000			Wing pylons, can load missiles or gun pods. Attached mass affects acceleration and airspeed.								
	  Cargo	0			0.5 tons of cargo								
5	Robot Arm	300000			dST 20								
6	Robot Arm	300000			dST 20								
C	Fusion Reactor, Compact	600000			4 PPs. 50 year endurance, Volatile								
	Rear												
1	SL Advanced Metallic Laminate	120000			Hardened. dDR 3								
2	SL Advanced Metallic Laminate	120000			Hardened. dDR 3								
3	SL Advanced Metallic Laminate	120000			Hardened. dDR 3								
4	Hot Reactionless Thruster [!]	100000			1G Thrust (Split into two thrusters, 1 on each foot, each provides 0.5G thrust)								
5	Robot Leg [!]	300000			1 PP for all legs								
6	Robot Leg [!]	300000			1 PP for all legs								
	Winged	150000			2 Wings								
		3762000											
													
	GU-11	150,000			GU-11, 55mm, tri-barrel (Rapid Fire) conventional cannon. 7d d-damage, ROF 10, 350 shots. Handheld, dDR 3, 1.5 tons								
	External Clamp				Usually carries 6 "Long Range" missiles, 32cm, 6 tons, 6dx8 dDam. Max Load 3 tons each clamp								
													
	Super Veritech				Adds a full size pod: An additional Hot Reactionless thruster (+1G thrust), 3x Medium Battery w/8 16cm missile								
					launchers and 40 missiles (5 shots) and 4 single shot SRM missile launchers. Mass: 6.25 tons. 								
					Move changes to: 1.45G/c, Air Speed 14/1500 with Pod, GU-11, and full wing load.								
													
	Armored Veritech				Pod + armor: An additional Hot Reactionless Thruster (+1/3G thrust), 70 single shot SRM tubes								
					2 and 1/3rds Advanced Metallic Laminte, Unstreamlined: +5 dDR.  Adds 6.5 tons weight.								
					Can only walk/jump in Battloid mode, no transformation: With GU-11: Light Enc, 0.8x Walk move and jump distance.								
					Flight in Battleloid: 1.05G/c, Air Move 10/250								
													
	Shortrange missile launcher				This is an 8cm missile launcher: 0.05 tons, 3 shots.150 missiles per ton for reloads. SM +3								
					TL 10: Accel 5G, delta-V 5mps, half of a standard TL 10 28cm missile.								
													
	Single shot SRM tube				This is an 8cm launcher in a tube: 1/32 of a ton, 1 shot. No reloads. Usually added as a external pod								
													
	Single Shot MRM tube				This is a 16cm missile in a tube: 1/4 of a ton, 1 shot, No reloads. 								
													
	Single Shot LRM tube				This is a 32cm missile in a tube: 2 tons, 1 shot, no reloads.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by chandley

I dont do the "Legs = Jets" thing on this build because Guardian mode needs both jets and legs, so the trick used by Ariel doesnt really work.

Do note that the Ariel still has jets while in mecha mode - it simply gets more when it transforms into a fighter. It doesn't seem too much of a stretch to say that the Guardian form simply has smaller legs but more jets. The Ariel has Space Move 4G and Ground Move 0 as a fighter, Space Move 2G and Ground Move 10 as a mecha, so Space Move 3G and Ground Move 5 for the Guardian would make sense (as you've doubled ground move for 2 legs, that would probably be either Move 10 or Move 5/10).

Of course, Legs -> Jets is pretty nonsensical to start with.

[chandley]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Do note that the Ariel still has jets while in mecha mode - it simply gets more when it transforms into a fighter. It doesn't seem too much of a stretch to say that the Guardian form simply has smaller legs but more jets. The Ariel has Space Move 4G and Ground Move 0 as a fighter, Space Move 2G and Ground Move 10 as a mecha, so Space Move 3G and Ground Move 5 for the Guardian would make sense (as you've doubled ground move for 2 legs, that would probably be either Move 10 or Move 5/10).

Of course, Legs -> Jets is pretty nonsensical to start with.

Good point. Well, certainly the Veritechs might use a similar build, which is easy enough to slap on to my example there. Robotech the RPG has some pretty pessimistic speeds for human fighters, which I matched in my builds.

I also had to add lots of Super Jump, especially to Zentradi mecha, to get anywhere near listed ground speeds. This is desirable because otherwise, well... everything goes Move 10, which isnt very appealing.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by chandley

I also had to add lots of Super Jump, especially to Zentradi mecha, to get anywhere near listed ground speeds. This is desirable because otherwise, well... everything goes Move 10, which isnt very appealing.

Particularly for cinematic campaigns (and, honestly, mecha rarely have much use outside of such), you should be able to scale the speed of having two Robot Legs however you see fit. Typically, this will be Move 10 for SM+2 mecha, 15 for SM+3, 20 for SM+4, 30 for SM+5, and so forth - basically, you want your mecha to be running around at the same relative speed as an average (Move 5) human.

Also, I personally don't require Robot Legs beyond two to actually represent having legs beyond two - rather, they represent having more substantial legs. Using my above scheme, an SM+5 mecha with four Robot Legs might just have two really strong legs, giving it Move 30/60 instead of the Move 30 of it's peers with only two Robot Legs.

[scc]

The Stormhawk is SM+4 in Mecha, so that's how big it is, also note that Mecha works volume, not weight for it's SM's and that the F-14 is just over 20 yards long, which would make it SM+6. And there's a shot that clearly shows a Battlepod being 3 times the height of a Valkyrie, so those are at least one SM bigger, but it depends upon the Zentradi, which if I take a 50 foot figure are SM+5.

The Ariel and Stormhawk builds under Spaceships are both ILLEGAL.

I'm pretty sure that I want to use Mecha/Vehicles because it's more fiddly and produces varied results

[chandley]

Originally Posted by scc

The Stormhawk is SM+4 in Mecha, so that's how big it is, also note that Mecha works volume, not weight for it's SM's and that the F-14 is just over 20 yards long, which would make it SM+6. And there's a shot that clearly shows a Battlepod being 3 times the height of a Valkyrie, so those are at least one SM bigger, but it depends upon the Zentradi, which if I take a 50 foot figure are SM+5.

The Ariel and Stormhawk builds under Spaceships are both ILLEGAL.

I'm pretty sure that I want to use Mecha/Vehicles because it's more fiddly and produces varied results

Well, 3e Mecha/Vehicles is certainly more flexible, so shouldnt be an issue.

Im not sure what scene you are thinking of for your "3x height" shot. The Battleoid mode Veritechs and the basic Tactical pods are roughly the same height in all the shots I can find right now. Source materials put the Battloid at 40ft, the Tactical Pod at 50ft, and Zentradi themselves between 50ft and 60ft (they are badly scrunched up in the pods). Ill admit the SM+4 I quoted is Spaceships _mass_ based SM, not their linear height. Apologies for that.

All the battloids, pods, and Zentradi are humanoid, so SM is really just their longest dimension. So SM +5 for a Batteloid or Pod is pretty much dead on, while a Zentradi standing up could be SM+6 by height. From a mass based perspective, SM+5 works pretty well for the battloids/pods as well, around 30 tons apiece.

But, that is just what I went with. Dont let it constrain you if you have a different vision.