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Old 04-11-2017, 11:31 AM   #11
Nymdok
 
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Default Re: The Future of the DFRPG

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
This.

Paizo stays in business because of selling adventures, More of their revenue might come from other books but people play Pathfinder because of the adventures and particularly the long adventure paths. If I had something even sort of similar I could get my group that's mostly Pathfinder to play it.

No adventures equals no game.
If you had to guess, why would you say that is?

GURPS Adventures dont historically sell well (or so Im told), so either the market is different or the product is different. Whats the difference between Pathfinder Adventures and Mirror of the Fire Demon? What the difference between Pathfinder GMs and GURPS GMs?

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Old 04-11-2017, 11:32 AM   #12
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Default Re: The Future of the DFRPG

I like Bruno's ideas.
I think focusing on the DFRPG as a line is better for brand building, though I dread the loss to the main GURPS line in resources. However adding DFRPG items to the wish list could be helpful and I think mostly compatible with core fantasy GURPS.
Write most DFRPG books with a Campaigns and Crossovers section at the end that covers what you need to use it with the broader system should be enough and might not even be needed. Though it could serve as additional marketing.
Denizen or Power Up books should be good sellers and Bruno is right, aim for books to help the players.
And some of those books could add new rules that are really part of GURPS already but taken out of the DFRPG for simplicity.
For example a Martial Artist splat book could cover various styles an rules from Martial Arts or even GURPS Basic maneuvers that may have been left out of the DFRPG. As an advanced book it wont be as overwhelming as if they had been included in the DFRPG boxed set.
And people historically like power up type stuff, whether it be new rules or new gear.

Adventures designed for DFRPG can be much more tightly built than generic fantasy ones. Look at DF Adventure 1: Mirror of the Fire Demon.
GURPS does not have the crutch or easy out of writing for specific levels but you could write to the basic DF templates and have a chapter that offered advice for toughening it up to various ranges. I can take or leave most adventure books, however I know some love them and I suspect those into DFRPG more than GURPS plus the DF line would be more interested in adventures. Its not a brain thing but a time commitment thing.
And think how fondly decades later people still recall some old D&D adventure modules. That was good for the brand.


Settings: DF really is its own setting but I think a great setting really adds appeal to any product line. Trouble is making a great setting.
To me the DF line has strong potential here.
Go with what is in the books and a broad outline, including maps with lots of details missing to be added later.
Different areas of the maps could have rumors and hints for adventures but still leave room for each group to build out their own way.
I really think a DF based setting could work well but it needs to be simple to start with and use expansions for fleshing out specific areas or cultures.
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:36 AM   #13
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Default Re: The Future of the DFRPG

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Originally Posted by Nymdok View Post
If you had to guess, why would you say that is?

GURPS Adventures dont historically sell well (or so Im told), so either the market is different or the product is different. Whats the difference between Pathfinder Adventures and Mirror of the Fire Demon? What the difference between Pathfinder GMs and GURPS GMs?

Nymdok
In my opinion?
Adventure books for D&D and its later variants are built for established power levels and/or settings. That makes them much easier to build and easier for the GM to use.
Also they have a much wider audience and that benefit cannot be discounted.
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:46 AM   #14
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Default Re: The Future of the DFRPG

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A thread like this somewhere else on the internet where gamers chat. This is _exactly_ the kind of discussion that should be happening on various forums and groups to get a wide number of responses _and_ get in front of people who don't play GURPS.
I went off to start one but someone beat me to it.
RPG.net
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:47 AM   #15
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Default Re: The Future of the DFRPG

The Mirror of the Fire Demon is a complex adventure . . . it is more challenge to run than I'd care for . . . . to run a published adventure I want it to be relatively low impact on the DM or I'd just make up my own

I have started DMing 'You All Meet in an Inn', that very much gives an impression of being an awesome adventure I'd really enjoy running

One issue in it is I don't remember where to find rules for water action . . . I would have put a note 'see fun with water rules pg X book Y' in the text near the water encounter

Also the players nearly revolted when I killed the old man with the map, they were ready to pack up and go home
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:51 AM   #16
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Default Re: The Future of the DFRPG

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
In my opinion?
Adventure books for D&D and its later variants are built for established power levels and/or settings. That makes them much easier to build and easier for the GM to use.
Also they have a much wider audience and that benefit cannot be discounted.
Yes, but as we know, GURPS doesn't really stratify into a class/level system very well and to do so I think would harm the charm of GURPS flexibility. Its why I suggested the Adventure series Ideas, so that people could write adventures to a smaller point envelope.

So how do we get from here to there? How to we get to the point of what will expand that audience?

One of the challenges of GURPS premade adventures is that there is no established setting on which to 'hang' them. Without a Krynn, Faerun, Greyhawk where do you put white plume mountain? Does it matter?

Of course, that is completely wrong way round from how I understand Greyhawk to have evolved (have enough adventures and a world emerges). If you have the Barrier Peaks, do you really Need a setting or will that sort itself out like so many legos cobbled together?

So lets try this instead....

Having not seen the DFRPG just yet, and you had to choose between a Setting book or a set of adventures of equivalent page count, which would you prefer. Why?

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Old 04-11-2017, 12:10 PM   #17
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Default Re: The Future of the DFRPG

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GURPS Adventures dont historically sell well (or so Im told), so either the market is different or the product is different.
The difference is that GURPS as an entity is fractured into millions of different games. Whilst that is a good thing in terms of it's design aims (to be universal) it's an impossible start position for having a viable market to make adventures for.

Dungeon Fantasy has the chance to be a much more coherent customer base to target. You may only need one or two mega campaigns to seal the deal - Pendragon just seems to have one well know know campaign but is a perennial favourite. Call of Cthulhu has maybe a handful of major campaigns but they contribute a lot of success.

Once you've snagged people with Dungeon Fantasy and they have come to love the system hopefully people will expand into the wider GURPS world.
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Old 04-11-2017, 12:17 PM   #18
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In terms of fan support, I think the GURPS blogging community could create a variety of adventure seeds. A plot hook and some character customization suggestions would go a long way. A "flowchart" of 2-3 suggested encounters would be even better.
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Old 04-11-2017, 12:52 PM   #19
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Default Re: The Future of the DFRPG

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Originally Posted by Nymdok View Post
Whats the difference between Pathfinder Adventures and Mirror of the Fire Demon? What the difference between Pathfinder GMs and GURPS GMs?

Nymdok
Mirror of the Fire Demon and a Pathfinder Adventure Path are two totally different beasts. An adventure Path is pretty much the "Campaign in a Box" the other fellow asked for. Easily 15-20 sessions with detailed maps and encounters. That's detailed maps and fully laid out encounters with _everything_. The come out in chapters but by the time you've collected the whole series (and gone from level 1 to 16) you've got the equivalent of a full-sized hardback.

By contrast, Mirror is a relatively curious beast. The real meat of Mirror is a system for customizing parties of NPC treasure hunters who are basically the PC's opposite numbers. Then that's pretty much what you do in it. Fight these NPCs. The title MacGuffin (The Mirror of the Fire Demon) is pretty literally just a MacGuffin. It's not even given a gp value and if the GM wants it to do something he has to make that up. Most of the treasure you'll find is those NPCs equipment. It's kind of vague on the "go here and do this" area too.

So the Paizo product is big and full service. Everything is in there and with little or no need to create anything yourself. Mirror is much smaller and mostly consists of one useful tool with some vague suggestions for the rest of things.

As to the difference between GMs for one or the other there isn't necessarily any. I've done both and no GM in our group is exclusively Pathfinder. Few write their own adventures any more though.
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Old 04-11-2017, 12:55 PM   #20
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Default Re: The Future of the DFRPG

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Having not seen the DFRPG just yet, and you had to choose between a Setting book or a set of adventures of equivalent page count, which would you prefer. Why?
Easy. Adventures. Adventures have a grab-and-go mentality. We want folks to start playing right away. Things involving tinkering should be GURPS Dungeon Fantasy, not DFRPG, and settings involve tinkering.
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