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Old 07-09-2018, 06:02 PM   #1
Steve Jackson
President and EIC
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Default Unarmed Combat

What we have now:

UC I - IQ 10 - costs 2
UC II - IQ 12 - costs 2
UC III- IQ 14 - costs 2
UC IV - IQ 14 - costs 2 - min DX 15
UC V - IQ 14 - costs 3 - min DX 16

Suppose for the sake of discussion (I had some Sake of Discussion the other night and it was delicious) that we did something like

UC I - IQ 9 - costs 1
UC II - IQ 10 - costs 1
UC III- IQ 11 - costs 2 - min DX 13
UC IV - IQ 12 - costs 2 - min DX 14
UC V - IQ 12 - costs 2 - min DX 15

Then it would be credible to have a STARTING character who is well trained, provided he does not do much else.

I think where that settles out is
ST 8, DX 13, IQ 11 - 32 points
which would fit into the new requirement for UC III.

So you can spend 8 of a starting 11 IQ on training, leaving a whole 3 for other things. You will be a "dojo kid" who has not spent much time NOT training. But you can't start off as a Master.

If I decide that Silent Movement is overpriced (I know that Stealth, formerly Spying, costs too much), you might be able to start as a ninja!
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Old 07-09-2018, 07:15 PM   #2
Shostak
 
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Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: New England
Default Re: Unarmed Combat

Sounds good. I like how it makes that kind of low ST character a little less of a pushover.
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Old 07-09-2018, 08:17 PM   #3
Rick_Smith
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
Default Re: Unarmed Combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
... Suppose for the sake of discussion (I had some Sake of Discussion the other night and it was delicious) that we did something like

UC I - IQ 9 - costs 1
UC II - IQ 10 - costs 1
UC III- IQ 11 - costs 2 - min DX 13
UC IV - IQ 12 - costs 2 - min DX 14
UC V - IQ 12 - costs 2 - min DX 15
...
Hi Steve, everyone.
Looks good. I might do...

UC I - IQ 8 - costs 1
UC II - IQ 9 - costs 1
UC III- IQ 10 - costs 2 - min DX 13
UC IV - IQ 11 - costs 2 - min DX 14
UC V - IQ 12 - costs 2 - min DX 15

... because I like having the series of talents requiring progressively more IQ, but that is a minor quibble.

My players felt that UC ii was under powered. Perhaps add my Judo ability to it?

Warm regards, Rick.
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Old 07-09-2018, 09:25 PM   #4
luguvalium
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Unarmed Combat

I think reducing the IQ requirements will be necessary in light of the attribute maximum. I like the idea of a dojo-kid as a starting character.

Another idea I've pondered is to split up UC talents into their functions. Within UC I - V are 3 levels of Strike, each with +1 damage, 3 levels of improved defense, and 3 levels of grapple for lack of the better word: A shield rush like throw, improved throw, disarm.

By spiting it up, an unarmed fighter could have a style: Take Unarmed Strike I, II, first and that's more like boxing. Take Unarmed Throw I and II that's more like judo, and so forth. In addition to the IQ and DX requirements, any level III skill would require at lease and level I and level II in the others, or something like that.

That may be more complicated that you want, but if you like it, you are free to use it.
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Old 07-09-2018, 09:31 PM   #5
Kirk
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Default Re: Unarmed Combat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Jackson View Post
What we have now:

UC I - IQ 10 - costs 2
UC II - IQ 12 - costs 2
UC III- IQ 14 - costs 2
UC IV - IQ 14 - costs 2 - min DX 15
UC V - IQ 14 - costs 3 - min DX 16

Suppose for the sake of discussion (I had some Sake of Discussion the other night and it was delicious) that we did something like

UC I - IQ 9 - costs 1
UC II - IQ 10 - costs 1
UC III- IQ 11 - costs 2 - min DX 13
UC IV - IQ 12 - costs 2 - min DX 14
UC V - IQ 12 - costs 2 - min DX 15
IQ 12 is about 120 IQ in TFT. My personal professional experience says that is on the low end for more complex fighting systems and techniques.

Light bulbs don't come on for most people at the 120 level for more complex movements, and that is part of what is necessary to execute proper higher level combinations and counters at reactive speed taking into account proper strength, timing, angle of attack, appropriate technique, and the proper opportunity in an encounter.

Maybe making UC V an IQ 13 talent would at least tease a higher IQ out of it and keep UC skills progressive in the talents list up the IQ chain without doubling up in any one IQ level.

And realistically, most people can handle the time and training for about UC I and II and maybe III, but higher levels of many years/decades of discipline and proper training and experience are much more rare and should be mirrored as such in UC IV and V, so the DX and IQ requirements in the considered modifications are surely justified as minimums.
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Old 07-09-2018, 09:44 PM   #6
John Brinegar
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Unarmed Combat

I was thinking about UC earlier this evening and was moving toward something like what Steve proposes. This certainly makes a UC development path more obviously attractive. The character can actually start with 4 points of non-UC stuff, as raising the IQ to 12 for UC IV and V will provide another point to use for UC. Even with a 40-point attribute cap, a UC specialist could still reach ST 13, or stop at a lower ST and really build up DX.
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Old 07-09-2018, 10:31 PM   #7
JLV
 
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Location: Far northern California
Default Re: Unarmed Combat

Steve's changes work for me. I think they do a much better job of reflecting the reality of martial arts (and by that, I mean any skill that teaches you a fighting method, from boxing to savate to karate to t'ai chi or ninjutsu). I think trying to make them TOO literal is approaching GURPS territory, so leaving them as Unarmed Combat and giving some general benefits works better than breaking them down into component parts (unless you're going for a TFT version of Kung Fu 2100 or something.)

Last edited by JLV; 07-09-2018 at 11:12 PM.
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Old 07-09-2018, 11:04 PM   #8
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: Unarmed Combat

When I re-did the Unarmed Combat talent tree for my house rules I tried to tie talents to specific martial arts practices, and gave each some sort of distinctive advantage, so that knowing Judo was different from knowing how to box. The details are not terribly important (so long as they conform to the game's overall balance), but I will say people in my group liked it.
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Old 07-09-2018, 11:14 PM   #9
JLV
 
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Location: Far northern California
Default Re: Unarmed Combat

Lars, I certainly didn't mean to "dis" your method of doing it, I was just thinking in generalistic TFT terms.

I have no doubt that more detail in this area is very interesting to many, many players -- especially since I DID create a TFT version of Kung Fu 2100 and took martial arts to the bleeding edge when I did so. My players loved that particular game! ;-)
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Old 07-09-2018, 11:35 PM   #10
schoon
 
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Location: Oakland, CA, USA
Default Re: Unarmed Combat

I like the lower cost option.

It was nigh impossible to make a "monk" that was effective beside a basic fighter build.

This looks like it would help with that.
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