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Old 07-10-2018, 10:44 PM   #71
Gollum
 
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Default Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.

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Originally Posted by mr beer View Post
Wrong.

Lifting skill is not at all realistic. Therefore concluding that real world humans are limited to ST 15 because Lifting skill works like x in GURPS is back-to-front reasoning.
Alonsua is right here. Telling that, in GURPS, you absolutely need a ST score above 15 to simulate real world records while deliberately ignoring a GURPS rule is not fair.

A ST score above 15 may be required in your games, since you drop the lifting rule that you find unrealistic, but it is not in rules as written.

Having said that, if we follow How to be a GURPS GM, the maximum for the four attributes is 17-18, not 15. It is quoted by Warren “Mook” Wilson, but it is what Sean “Kromm” Punch wrote. So it is hard to have a more official answer.

It doesn’t mean that the modern world records require a ST score of 17-18. It just means that ST 17-18 is supposed to be the historical best possible.

And yes, Conan is surely over that because he is not a realistic character. He is a mythic one, if not even better, as AlexanderHowl brilliantly showed it.
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Last edited by Gollum; 07-10-2018 at 10:59 PM.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:34 AM   #72
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Default Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.

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Well, Howard did not intend him to be a superhuman, he was more the archetypal barbarian warrior, but I can see your point. In any case, I think that since Conan outwrestled anacondas and gorillas, as well as killed normal humans with a single punch, he was significantly stronger than ST 14.
He was ST 14 by the GURPS books.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:42 AM   #73
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Default Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.

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He was ST 14 by the GURPS books.
Which books please?
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:45 AM   #74
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Default Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.

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Like the advanced formula which says ST = 2x(cube root of weight in lbs)?
Or better like trying to keep the real world scenario in which the human is twice as strong as a gorilla because... potato?

I guess your ST 20 human weighs 200 lbs instead of 860-1.160 lbs (which is the appropriate weight for ST 20 with an average frame, so no body fat over 16% unless you want to add +30/50/100% at minimum to that initial weight).

And let the poor gorilla weigh 400 lbs (with a muscular frame) in exchange for a bushleague ST 15 at the same time because all we know is that to be little unique snowflakes men are mean to be much stronger than gorillas.

And lets not forget to note that Lifting is unrealistic because... potato again?

And of course we must be oblivious to the fact that even as a fictional character Conan the Barbarian had ST 14 because that is unimportant to this discussion.
That's a lot of talking, but as I said correctly, it's an observable fact that the strongest humans are 4x or more stronger than normal humans, so I'm happy with a ST 20 person being reasonable as 'strongest in the world'.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:45 AM   #75
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Default Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
In Howard's original stories, Conan killed a pirate by punching him in the jaw (and that was not the only time that he did that type of stunt). That suggests a capacity to deal a minimum of 20 points of damage with his bare hands (and a minimum of 3d+2 crushing damage). Even if Conan was using All-out Attack and was receiving the damage bonus from Boxing at DX+2, he would still have to do a minimum base of 2d-1 crushing damage with his punch before bonuses (meaning that his base thrust damage would have been 2d). That would give him a minimum Striking ST 21.
Well he could have critted the pirate for x3 damage, then he'd only need ST 11 and all out strong to do 20 damage. :)
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:47 AM   #76
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Default Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.

If you need to kill people around you may aswell just use the variant rule based on the article*Knowing Your Own Strength*from*Pyramid #3/83*—*Alternate GURPS Ⅳ.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:52 AM   #77
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Default Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.

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Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
Alonsua is right here. Telling that, in GURPS, you absolutely need a ST score above 15 to simulate real world records while deliberately ignoring a GURPS rule is not fair.
I made no such comment. I'm quite happy for anyone to cap ST at 15 for a 'realistic' game - I'd play in that game - and I'm also happy to cap ST at 20 for my games and I will call them realistic too.

I disagree completely that my approach is flat out wrong because of Lifting skill, when this skill bears very little resemblance to reality. It just doesn't work with real world weightlifting.
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:53 AM   #78
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Default Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.

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That's a lot of talking, but as I said correctly, it's an observable fact that the strongest humans are 4x or more stronger than normal humans, so I'm happy with a ST 20 person being reasonable as 'strongest in the world'.
They are exactly 3.92 stronger at ST 14 plus Lifting 18 as soon as you start using the skill appropriately. And 4.5 stronger by ST 15.
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:04 AM   #79
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Default Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.

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If you need to kill people around you may aswell just use the variant rule based on the article*Knowing Your Own Strength*from*Pyramid #3/83**Alternate GURPS Ⅳ.
Oh. OK. But is it possible to crush the ribcage of a gorilla by squeezing it with two arms with a ST as low as 14? Conan once did. Come on, Robert E. Howard never intended to make him a realistic hero.
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:07 AM   #80
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Default Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.

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Which books please?
Probably GURPS Conan*a*GURPS*version by*Steve Jackson Games. Since it is 3e you may need to follow the update guide for 4e.

You can also take the D&D versions and convert them to GURPS (GURPS stat = 10 + D&D modifier).
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Last edited by Alonsua; 07-11-2018 at 01:15 AM.
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