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Old 07-10-2018, 01:07 AM   #61
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Default Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.

Yes, that has been discussed many times in many threads, including that one.

The “problem” with GURPS ST is that it covers far too many things to correspond to real strength. Like any other attribute. And like any other attribute in any other roleplaying game, actually. Roleplaying games are not reality simulators, there are just very rough simplification designed to have fun.

In reality, someone who is very strong for weight lifting, for instance, won’t be that strong for pushing, striking, pulling … Sure, he will remain much stronger than an ordinary man (like me) for anything, but muscle building depends on the activity. A very strong karateka is not at all a very strong climber (able to lift himself dozens of time with only one hand), nor a very strong swimmer, push-up champion or even wrestler … Muscle building exercises are always very specific.

Alonsua, did you read How to be a GURPS GM? It discusses what mean the different attribute levels, among many other interesting topics. It really helps to understand how GURPS is built and how to best understand it.

For attributes, for instance, it says (page 12):
17-18: Legendary (historical “bests” and remarkable fictional heroes).
19-20: Mythic (astounding even among great heroes in fiction and folklore).
Sorry if it has already been said – I don’t have time to read that whole thread, even if it is really interesting (I just skimmed through it).
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Old 07-10-2018, 02:01 AM   #62
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Default Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr beer View Post
The thing is that using real world weightlifting feats in order to determine GURPS strength is only ever going to be a rough approximation.

If you want to use GURPS to realistically model world-class strength athletes, you'd need to write GURPS: Strength Athletes and it would involve reworking the Lifting skill and using new, specific formulas for a number of common lifts and feats. This would be a plausible project but likely extremely dull for most games and gamers.

Conversely, if you want to use strength athletes to model GURPS, you are wasting your time IME.

My conclusions from observing strength sports is that it's a reasonable rule of thumb to say that world class strength athletes in an uncapped weight class are at least 4x as 'strong' as a normal man in good health. In GURPS, a ST 20 character is 4x as strong as a ST 10 character. Therefore ST 20 is a plausible real world stat.
Wrong. ST 10 basic lift is 20 lb. ST 15 basic lift is 45 lb. With Lifting 18 and a perk for +2 to skill the last number increases to 81 lb rolling against 12. 81/20 = 4.05. If you was to roll against 10 that would have increased to 90/20 = 4.5. Thank you.

Pd. You are free to play cinematic characters, just do not try to make them look realistic taking half of the variables out of the equation. At ST 20 with Lifting 18 and a perk you are at a basic lift of 144 lb, which is 7.2 times stronger than a normal person in good health, or basic lift 160 lb, which is 8 times stronger. That person would also be 1.8-3.6 times stronger than a gorilla and would weigh 1.000 lbs.
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Last edited by Alonsua; 07-10-2018 at 02:10 AM.
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Old 07-10-2018, 12:57 PM   #63
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Default Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.

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Originally Posted by mr beer View Post
If you want to use GURPS to realistically model world-class strength athletes, you'd need to write GURPS: Strength Athletes and it would involve reworking the Lifting skill and using new, specific formulas for a number of common lifts and feats. This would be a plausible project but likely extremely dull for most games and gamers.
An entire book on Strength Athletes might be a bit much, but a Pyramid article which touches the basics could be interesting. Part of the fun of playing a "brick" character is figuring out cool ways to use your strength.
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Old 07-10-2018, 01:03 PM   #64
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Default Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.

If you use the Lifting Skill and Extra Effort rules, the world's strongest man has about a 16 ST.
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Old 07-10-2018, 01:33 PM   #65
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Default Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.

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If you use the Lifting Skill and Extra Effort rules, the world's strongest man has about a 16 ST.
Hi Edges. You´re close... but I can do him with 14 ST! :D
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Old 07-10-2018, 06:31 PM   #66
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Default Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.

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Wrong. ST 10 basic lift is 20 lb. ST 15 basic lift is 45 lb. With Lifting 18 and a perk
Wrong.

Lifting skill is not at all realistic. Therefore concluding that real world humans are limited to ST 15 because Lifting skill works like x in GURPS is back-to-front reasoning.

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Pd. You are free to play cinematic characters
Wow, thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alonsua View Post
just do not try to make them look realistic taking half of the variables out of the equation.
I'm not removing variables from the equation, or rather I'm not including GURPS variables which do not equate well to the real world when examined in specific scenarios.
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Old 07-10-2018, 08:22 PM   #67
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Default Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.

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Wrong.

Lifting skill is not at all realistic. Therefore concluding that real world humans are limited to ST 15 because Lifting skill works like x in GURPS is back-to-front reasoning.



Wow, thank you!



I'm not removing variables from the equation, or rather I'm not including GURPS variables which do not equate well to the real world when examined in specific scenarios.
Like the advanced formula which says ST = 2x(cube root of weight in lbs)?
Or better like trying to keep the real world scenario in which the human is twice as strong as a gorilla because... potato?

I guess your ST 20 human weighs 200 lbs instead of 860-1.160 lbs (which is the appropriate weight for ST 20 with an average frame, so no body fat over 16% unless you want to add +30/50/100% at minimum to that initial weight).

And let the poor gorilla weigh 400 lbs (with a muscular frame) in exchange for a bushleague ST 15 at the same time because all we know is that to be little unique snowflakes men are mean to be much stronger than gorillas.

And lets not forget to note that Lifting is unrealistic because... potato again?

And of course we must be oblivious to the fact that even as a fictional character Conan the Barbarian had ST 14 because that is unimportant to this discussion.
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Last edited by Alonsua; 07-10-2018 at 08:32 PM.
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Old 07-10-2018, 09:07 PM   #68
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Default Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.

In Howard's original stories, Conan killed a pirate by punching him in the jaw (and that was not the only time that he did that type of stunt). That suggests a capacity to deal a minimum of 20 points of damage with his bare hands (and a minimum of 3d+2 crushing damage). Even if Conan was using All-out Attack and was receiving the damage bonus from Boxing at DX+2, he would still have to do a minimum base of 2d-1 crushing damage with his punch before bonuses (meaning that his base thrust damage would have been 2d). That would give him a minimum Striking ST 21.
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Old 07-10-2018, 10:51 PM   #69
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Default Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.

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In Howard's original stories, Conan killed a pirate by punching him in the jaw (and that was not the only time that he did that type of stunt). That suggests a capacity to deal a minimum of 20 points of damage with his bare hands (and a minimum of 3d+2 crushing damage). Even if Conan was using All-out Attack and was receiving the damage bonus from Boxing at DX+2, he would still have to do a minimum base of 2d-1 crushing damage with his punch before bonuses (meaning that his base thrust damage would have been 2d). That would give him a minimum Striking ST 21.
It is course fair to describe Conan as superhuman.
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Old 07-10-2018, 11:41 PM   #70
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Default Re: Attribute levels and their meanings.

Well, Howard did not intend him to be a superhuman, he was more the archetypal barbarian warrior, but I can see your point. In any case, I think that since Conan outwrestled anacondas and gorillas, as well as killed normal humans with a single punch, he was significantly stronger than ST 14.
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