Low Tech Favorite Weapon

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Having Form Mastery means Weapon Adaptation isn't necessary.

Even if you have Weapon Adaptation it only avoids the need to Default to another Skill i.e. you can use a Polearm with your full Staff Skill not borrowing whatever stats you like from the Staff line of the weapon's table.

Let’s consider a different situation - a character with Weapon Adaptation (Two-handed Sword uses Broadsword). With a greatsword he can use his Broadsword skill, but still uses the statline from 2h Sword (including, of course, needing to use two hands). With a longsword, he can choose to use its Broadsword or 2h Sword statline, with the benefits and drawbacks of whatever he chose. The GM would be within rights to require the player choose which statline he’s using at the start of each turn, but a further Perk - probably Grip Mastery rather than Form Mastery - would allow him to switch it up freely.

Coming back to our spearman, Weapon Adaptation (Staff uses Spear) would mean he can use Spear skill with a quarterstaff, using its statline from Staff (including 2h usage and the +2 Parry). With a spear, he can choose to use its Spear or Staff statline, with the benefits and drawbacks of whatever he chose. The GM would be within rights to require the player choose which statline he’s using at the start of each turn, but a further Perk - probably Grip Mastery rather than Form Mastery - would allow him to switch it up freely.

Thus, either 1 Perk (if the GM lets him switch freely by default) or 2 (if the GM doesn’t) would let the spearman use his spear freely for stabs, tip slashes, and butt strikes (thrusting or swung), as well as giving a +2 Parry. Note you can’t use a similar scheme to get a +2 Parry with polearms, as their Staff entry (for the buttstrike) is only at +0 Parry.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Varyon

L
t a further Perk - probably Grip Mastery rather than Form Mastery - would allow him to switch it up freely.
.

Form Mastery alows for switching from one Skill to the other multiply and freely during a Turn. Grip Mastery would be for switching between 1-h and 2-h Spear only. Staff has no conventional 1-h grip.

I don't actually see Grip Mastery getting a lot of use with Spear. You'd use 1-h only when you were using the other hand for a shield or another weapon.

I don't see a lot of pint to this whole diversion. Yes, if you spend more pts on the whole Staff/Spear/Polearm constellation you can get more utility from them but spending more pts on _anything_ should get you more utility. More is more.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Form Mastery alows for switching from one Skill to the other multiply and freely during a Turn. Grip Mastery would be for switching between 1-h and 2-h Spear only. Staff has no conventional 1-h grip.

I don't actually see Grip Mastery getting a lot of use with Spear. You'd use 1-h only when you were using the other hand for a shield or another weapon.

It could see some use if you tend to use offhand throwing weapons (like Kaladin Stormblessed from The Stormlight Archives) or need to drink potions during combat, particularly when combined with relevant Fast Draw. Would you agree it is the appropriate Perk here, or should it still be Form Mastery despite using the same skill? Grip Mastery seems more appropriate to me, particularly when considering this is almost certainly what my example swordsman would need to be able to freely switch between 1h and 2h grips on a longsword.

Then again, I doubt anything would break if Form Mastery and Grip Mastery were a single Perk. Hell, you may even be able to get away with throwing Reach Mastery into the mix.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I don't see a lot of pint to this whole diversion. Yes, if you spend more pts on the whole Staff/Spear/Polearm constellation you can get more utility from them but spending more pts on _anything_ should get you more utility. More is more.

The point is you don’t need to spend very many points - at most [2] - to get a rather large benefit (net +1 to Parry, and full skill crushing attacks).

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Varyon

It. Would you agree it is the appropriate Perk here, o

Grip Mastery is of course the proper Perk for shifting between a 1-5 and 2-h grip.

Form Mastery is for shifting between 2-h Spear and 2-h Staff even if flavor text describes a change in "grip" in the Ready action you are avoiding. Likewise you use Reach Mastery to change the Reach of your weapon even if flavor text again mentions a change in "grip" again during a superseded Ready action.

If it helps it is 3 different ready Actions that are being done away with.

[acrosome]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Weapon Adaptation (Staff defaults to Spear) means using Staff weapons (including the spear when not attacking with the pointy end)...

Unless I misunderstood what you are saying there... if you're using Weapon Adaptation then you don't need to worry about using Spear skill to attack with the pointy end, because you can use Staff skill. You don't need Spear skill at all- just like in that lens I posted.
Weapon Adaptation is damned cheap for what it does, actually, but it probably is somewhat realistic. Once you've trained in one weapon to really high levels I'm sure that skill sets do transfer a bit as long as the weapons are somewhat similar (thus the -4 or better default requirement)..

I think that when using Weapon Adaptation this way the only spear functionality that you lose is using it one-handed. But I suspect that one-handed spear use with a shield is just an odd form of suicide unless you're in a shield wall, so the biggest loss is stabbing down with it from horseback.

Originally Posted by Varyon

Let’s consider a different situation - a character with Weapon Adaptation (Two-handed Sword uses Broadsword).

That's illegal, isn't it? I thought that the requirements of Weapon Adaptation is that the two skills/weapons had to use the same number of hands as well as the default to one another at no worse than -4 that I mentioned above?

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Grip Mastery would be for switching between 1-h and 2-h Spear only. Staff has no conventional 1-h grip.

No, it's also for switching between regular grip and defensive grip- see the entry in MA. Otherwise why does the Quarterstaff style in MA have grip mastery as a perk?

[jason taylor]

I talked about it earlier but I kind of like the idea of giving Dwarves something like a mattock with an axe blade on one end a pick or an adze (perhaps both-a spearpoint adze) on the other edge of the head and a butt spike. It could be used not only for fighting but tunneling, anchoring a rope, etc.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by acrosome

...

I think that when using Weapon Adaptation this way the only spear functionality that you lose is using it one-handed. But I suspect that one-handed spear use with a shield is just an odd form of suicide unless you're in a shield wall, ...

I definitely agree having a spear and shield in a shield wall is the way to go if possible and it's where that combination of weapons really shines. But there are a couple of points about that lindybeige video .

The main one is the chaps in that video have not only got generally speaking way more experience fighting with swords than spears, but also less experience fighting with shields than without. I.e it's not comparing like to like with skill.

(TBF to Lindybeige he recognises this himself in some version of the video or maybe a later one where he refers back to this one IIRC?)

Also and to tie into the shield / formation point as well. In the video those chaps also do most of their group fighting in the form of (very) loose skirmishing, (because they're generally used to one on one sword duels). Which is why a lot of the group fights in that video break down into them operating individually and running around like mad things.

Like you say organised shield walls are best, but even in much smaller fights than wouldn't allow for full on shield wall formations shield and spear men staying close together and not running around like mad thing helps, as they can support each other.

Originally Posted by acrosome

...
No, it's also for switching between regular grip and defensive grip- see the entry in MA. Otherwise why does the Quarterstaff style in MA have grip mastery as a perk?

Yep good point. A staff in defensive grip and using defensive options (waits, defensive attacks, retreats, even AoD) is a tough opponent to get where you want or land hits on, especially if they have a reach advantage. They might not be dishing out as much potential injury per hit compared to a cut/imp sword wielder but given enough time they'll beat them to death*, and grip mastery helps them swap back and forth between defensive and more aggressive postures.



*to paraphrase half-cocked Jack :-)

[Rasna]

Lindybeige isn't a reliable source at all. The people in his video clearly haven't any experience in using the spear and the shield.

For example, most of Early Iron Age fighting in the Italian Peninsula was conducted by small warbands composed by men armed with spears, shields, javelins and shortswords. Even while skirmishing, the shield was vital as protecting against ranged weapons, and it wasn't discarded prior the melee but it was used together with the spear. So, the spear&shield combo was a good thing even outside a phalanx formation, but requires some more practice, as using the spear with one hand is more difficult than using it with both hands.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Rasna

Lindybeige isn't a reliable source at all. The people in his video clearly haven't any experience in using the spear and the shield.

eh I'm fine with Lindybeige. I don't agree with everything he says or all his conclusions (and/or how he gets there). But if nothing else he's often happy to examine and question his own points and methodology in his own videos. Frankly that alone puts him him head and shoulders above 99% of youtube & the internet in general!

And yeah OK some of his points and finer nuances get lost in him going off on umpteen tangents, but well I'm hardly one to throw stones at that ;-)!

If nothing else the man tells a good story!

Originally Posted by Rasna

For example, most of Early Iron Age fighting in the Italian Peninsula was conducted by small warbands composed by men armed with spears, shields, javelins and shortswords. Even while skirmishing, the shield was vital as protecting against ranged weapons, and it wasn't discarded prior the melee but it was used together with the spear. So, the spear&shield combo was a good thing even outside a phalanx formation, but requires some more practice, as using the spear with one hand is more difficult than using it with both hands.

and for many at that time (and at other times) equipping yourself with a shield and spear is way cheaper and easier than equipping yourself with a sword, especially the longer swords in some of those videos.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by acrosome

Unless I misunderstood what you are saying there... if you're using Weapon Adaptation then you don't need to worry about using Spear skill to attack with the pointy end, because you can use Staff skill. You don't need Spear skill at all- just like in that lens I posted.
Weapon Adaptation is damned cheap for what it does, actually, but it probably is somewhat realistic. Once you've trained in one weapon to really high levels I'm sure that skill sets do transfer a bit as long as the weapons are somewhat similar (thus the -4 or better default requirement).

The way I’m interpreting Weapon Adaptation is that it basically turns two skills into one. I opted to set that one as Spear, in case there were objections to Staff gaining the ability to be used with one hand. Spear-and-shield is useful outside of a shield wall, primarily because DB adds to Dodge.

Originally Posted by acrosome

That's illegal, isn't it? I thought that the requirements of Weapon Adaptation is that the two skills/weapons had to use the same number of hands as well as the default to one another at no worse than -4 that I mentioned above?

I don’t have my books on me to check, but seeing as you can use most one-handed skills with two hands (Defensive Grip), that seems like an odd restriction. I do recall it being mentioned the GM would often be ok loosening the restrictions, with a note that having halberds and broadswords using the same skill would be inappropriate outside of over-the-top and/or silly campaigns.

Suffice to say, I would certainly allow it, and I could probably convince another GM to do the same (although it could cost me a Rules Exemption Perk, which makes my strategy start to get expensive). That’s more an issue for swords, of course, as Spear and Staff both have 2h statlines.