Striking ST and bows

[Jeminai]

If I want to do more damage with a bow (by purchasing a higher strength bow) do I purchase Striking ST or Lifting ST since I want to be able to pull the stronger bow?

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Jeminai

If I want to do more damage with a bow (by purchasing a higher strength bow) do I purchase Striking ST or Lifting ST since I want to be able to pull the stronger bow?

Canonically by RAW you use Striking ST. If you're using the rules from The Deadly Spring in Pyramid #3/33, you use Lifting ST instead. Ask you're GM; if you're the GM, you may decide.

Bows use the thrust table. Thus, +1 to thrust is +2 to ST, which costs 6 points of Lifting ST.

+1 to swing damage in melee is 5 points (+1 to Striking ST). So really, I like lifting ST from a cost per unit damage basis.

[Anthony]

I'd actually be tempted by something like 'max bow weight you can use is determined by lifting ST, but a bow with ST exceeding your striking ST takes an extra turn to ready' -- because striking ST describes your ability to apply force quickly.

[simply Nathan]

And I would tend to say "Bow draw weights are calculated by what BL you would have at the ST you would need to draw them if you were buying normal ST rather than its components, but the component of ST that actually lets you do this is Striking ST and not Lifting ST"

[Figleaf23]

Don't overlook Arm ST as an option.

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Figleaf23

Don't overlook Arm ST as an option.

Or the Strongbow perk.

[Tomsdad]

I've messed around with the idea of also allowing bow users the ability to draw heavier bows (by increasing the max pull allowed by the BL calculation in Deadly spring) by allowing them to make a "lifting roll" using bow skill.

My justification being drawing a heavy bow can be a relatively slow implementation of Strength (something that ties into the rules for draw time in deadly spring). And while ability to draw a heavy bow is obviously down to ST and ST add-ons justified by bow related perks i.e strong bow etc, it's also function of training and which is a function of skill.

I'd also allow EE for truly strong but not maintainable draws.

This would also allow good bowmen to increase the speed they can draw heavier bows by increasing their BL though successes even if they are not pulling bows beyond their normal max BL.

However a few caveats on this

I tend to have low ST's in my campaign (10-13) and while I allow 'strong bow' and lift/arm ST to justify ST10-13 as base ST, I still need some extra to give (IMO) realistic ST's the ability to pull historical heavier Bow pulls*.

I also tend to use Deadly spring realistic damage as well.

I also tend not to have massively high skills.

I only tend to allow it for traditions of archery where heavy pull bows were common and heavy pulls the point. I.e horse archers probably won't get it etc, etc

That said I'm guessing that as a value adder without these caveats it could get a bit powerful. Basically I use this to give an edge to certain groups not to make chaps who can "pin knights to oak doors".

Since I also use last gasp, I'd also add an extra AP when you do this. Making the point that your pulling out of your comfort zone, and that's tiring.

For me this all means that the bows effectiveness is value added by skill and special training (i.e strong bow, justified increases to lifting St etc), more than usual. But such advantages are only accessible from long training.

Basically a ST11 lowbowman with lifting ST+1 and Strongbow +1** can normally pull a (13x13/5)*2.5 85lb bow in two seconds, and a 68lb in one second.

But with skill of 14 and a roll of 10 on his draw roll (+20%), he can boost that to 102lbs (or draw a 81lb bow in second).

The idea being that an experienced archer doing this will get a feel for what pull of bow he can reasonably expect to draw regularly (i.e with skill of 14 to get 1-2 MoS). In theory given a roll of 5 the chap above could pull a 123lb, but he'd be fool to walk around with a 123lb bow on the expectation he'll roll that every-time he draws it.

One last thing I would allow an archer to take extra time on his pull/lift roll, but given that time taken increases exponential compared to liner increases in bonuses and he's spending an AP for every second (+1 for making the roll) in reality he'll run out of AP faster than he'll accrue bonuses. Which makes sense given we're talking about muscle tension and maintaining application of muscle force.

Anyway, these seems to be working well at the moment, but let me know if anyone can see any obvious problems or gaps.

Sorry that got more long-winded than I intended!




*without getting into another debate about realistic ST, it means I don't have thousands of English longbowmen in the C14th/C15th who could happily compete at weight lifting in the modern Olympics and all that entails for the wider system.

**so even by my low standards not an exceptional individual, make him ST12, lift St+2 and strongbow +2 and 4 MoS on his roll he can draw 154lbs 'Mary rose' bows all day long so long as he has a recovery period every once in a while.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Anthony

I'd actually be tempted by something like 'max bow weight you can use is determined by lifting ST, but a bow with ST exceeding your striking ST takes an extra turn to ready' -- because striking ST describes your ability to apply force quickly.

Lifting ST without Striking ST doesn't really make you any slower at lifting things, though, does it? I mean, you still lift BL with one hand within one second, right?

So, how much less than a second do most archers take to draw their bows? Or conversely, if you need a full second in order to draw, since you're using Lifting ST in excess of your regular ST, does the other stuff you need to do in order to be ready to loose really justify a whole extra turn of the Ready maneuver?

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Lifting ST without Striking ST doesn't really make you any slower at lifting things, though, does it? I mean, you still lift BL with one hand within one second, right?

So, how much less than a second do most archers take to draw their bows? Or conversely, if you need a full second in order to draw, since you're using Lifting ST in excess of your regular ST, does the other stuff you need to do in order to be ready to loose really justify a whole extra turn of the Ready maneuver?

Well since after drawing you tend to have to acquire or reacquire your target, Also don't forget that last second is the second in which you attack is completed. Which in the case of bows and arrows has to include a bit of travel time for the arrow.

However that said I tend to view it as weaker bows require less effort to draw means that all that can be down in one fluid motion (i.e a second) bows heavier (relative to the St of the drawer) require a distinct* drawing effort then followed by the rest (i.e 2+ seconds).

*EDIT: longer is probably a better word to use here

Obviously in reality it's not going to all bows fit into being 1 second bows and 2 second bows, there will be a spread of times. But it's a second based system (which is lets face already pretty precise). However As I said in my (long winded) post above I allow for options to slow or speed your draw based on taking more or less time on the 'draw' roll.

[DanHoward]

There is no aiming with English warbows. The technique involves drawing and shooting in one continuous action. They can't hold them at full draw even for a short length of time. This suggests to me that they are using bows with a ST that is higher than their own ST. In order to hold a bow at full draw and aim they would either need to use a weaker bow or they need to use Extra Effort or some other means of temporarily increasing their ST. I'm thinking of allowing characters to use bows with ST that is one point higher than their own ST if they don't aim.